AR15/M4 Builds

[NewbieFJ60]

Since Building gun themes are coming up . Someone post up your AR's and the specs on them ...

[racinghoss]

LRB lower

RRA LPK, but I swapped the hammer out for a DPMS rounded hammer

Young Manufacturing Chrome AR-15 BCG

20" Armalite Heavy Barrel flat top

A-2 stock

Bushmaster carry handle

JARD 3lb trigger

Mako pistol grip

Magpul trigger guard



Still to come:

National Match sights (front and rear)

Free float handguards

I'm not trying to build a mall ninja piece. Just a functional AR that I could shoot accurately with open sights. I will try to post pics soon. I plan to get most of my guns out and photo them.

[NewbieFJ60]

Im almost done , Upper will be ordered on friday . Then I will post pics but heres my specs so far

AR15/M4 Build Specs

Receiver: S&W MP15

Lower Parts:
Timberwolf tactical SS Trigger & LPK
Part # TWLRPK1

magpul Enhanced Trigger Guard
part # MAG015

Mil-Spec Receiver Tube

Mil-Spec Castle Nut

YH&M Single Point Sling Adapter
part # YHM-9756

Vltor Emod Stock
Part # AEB-MB

Tango Down Grip
Part # TD-BG-16-BK


Upper Receiver Parts:
Magpul BUIS Part # MAG 246-BLK

YH&M 4 rail upper part # YHM-9670

Knights Armorment Vert Grip

[Gazer]

Rock River Arms... features can be found in the link.

http://rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?f...egory_id= 221

The most basic two point sling possible. Nothing special.

Tango Down stubby vertical grip...

http://www.bowerstactical.com/store/...by-p-1880.html

Viking Tactics Light Mount...

http://www.vikingtactics.com/prod_vtac_lightmount.html

Surefire E2D with LED Head. 200 lumens for 2 hours or 5 lumens for 76 hours.

http://www.surefire.com/E2DL

C-More red dot optic will be ordered soon I hope. Money is a biatch.

[PlayN_Mud]

Alright, finally got the time to take a photo of mine.



Specs:

RRA Lower
RRA Stage 2 Trigger
VLTOR MUR-1A Upper
YHM Specter Length FF Rail
Denny's Guns Super M16 BCG
BCM Gunfighter Gen4 Charging Handle
Noveske 16.1 Recon Barrel SS
Smith Vortex FH
Harris Bipod
Magpul MAID OD
Magpul UBR OD
Magpul MBUS OD
Magpul Ladder Rail Covers OD
Magpul 20Rd Pmags OD

[T-Bone]

Specs:
DPMS Upper & Lower
Noveske-12.5" Crusader 5.56mm barrel with Switchblock
Smith Enterprises-Vortex Flash Suppressor
Daniel Defense-M4 Rail 9.5 FSP (Carbine)
Daniel Defense-Offset Flashlight Mount PAK
Surefire-G2 Flash Light
BlueForce-Vickers Combat Applications Sling
Midwest Ind.-Front Sling Adapter
YHM-Carbine Single Mount Sling Adapter
Vltor-Carbine Modstock/Carbine Combo Kit
Magpul-MIAD Grip Kit
Magpul-Enhanced Trigger Guard, Aluminum
Magpul-Ladder Rail Covers
Magpul-PMAGs
Norgon-Ambi Magazine Releas/Catch
Alaska Tactical- Extended Tac-Latch
Trijicon-TA33G-H: 3x30 Trijicon ACOG® with Green Horseshoe/Dot Reticle
Troy Ind.-M4 Style Folding Sights

[NewbieFJ60]

Gotta love the SBR ... I only need the following
Assemble my Lower
Tango Down grip to arrive
Get BCG and buffer/spring and I am set ..

[Strat]

building a rifle with parts from 10 different manufactures is a nightmare, sure it might all bolt together but it is not something I would want to take to combat, more like a range toy. If you want the real thing get a complete military grade system, just because the manufacture says it's "mil spec" means nothing, anyone can legally use that word. Unless the company that made it is a government contractor and actually has access to the Technical Data Package, it's not true mil-spec. An easy way to tell is if they post what the specs are right next the word mil-spec, then you can look them up to see it they match.

A good example is Bushmaster, they will tell you they are a "Government contractor" and technically they would not be lying. In the early 90's they shipped $35,000 worth of guns and parts to the US Government for evaluation. Every gun failed and the government said no thanks. The commercial AR market is overflowing with half truth and all out BS, even the best commercial manufacturers have to play games to make money. That is why a military grade AR is the way to go, there are billions of man hours invested in every gun and with the military contracts driving down the civilian price you get the best gear at an affordable price.

[NewbieFJ60]

sorry not all of us can afford to go drop 2 grand on a POF built rifle.. I dont have a problem with my "range toy" as you call it ...

[Gazer]

Originally Posted by NewbieFJ60

sorry not all of us can afford to go drop 2 grand on a POF built rifle.. I dont have a problem with my "range toy" as you call it ...

Agreed. 99% of us will never fire our AR outside of range shooting or maybe popping some prarie dogs or a coyote. They're nothing more than toys or maybe home defense, but even home defense is a stretch, if you have neighbors anywhere close then AR is a bad choice. Pistol or shotgun would be better served to not kill a family member or someone across the street when you unload.

If I have to choose between a $1,000 AR or a $2,000 AR and I'm paying for it then I'll take the cheaper one so long as it isn't complete crap. None of us are taking these into "combat." Even from a Law Enforcement perspective, that is not combat... you won't be dropping it and getting it extremely dirty or subjecting it to overly harsh conditions without the ability to clean it. I use a RRA because I liked the fact that the D.E.A. chose them after I read what they put them through in testing. That said, I would have no problem using a bushmaster.

Anything is susceptible to failure under the right conditions. You get what you pay for to a certain extent... after a certain point you're just paying for a name and the bragging rights of owning something that most people can't afford. If my $1,000 AR is good enough for the D.E.A. then I'm darn sure it's good enough for whatever minor abuses I'll put it through.

[RSOVJR]

Most common pistols and shotguns as well have more penetration than 5.56 in common construction walls. There's a reason most SRT/SWAT/whatever is going to m4's and sbr's at that.

[RSOVJR]

Having said that, my AR is an armalite, midlength gas system. RRA freefloat rail, flattop gas block replacement w/ flipup front and rear sights. Redimag, pachmeyer pistol grip, national match trigger and a UTG vertical forward grip.

The sling's a leftover from when I was active duty, it's what I like most out of all I have tried so I just roll with it.

Surefire Thunder Ranch kit for the taclight.

[racinghoss]

If "combat" means going to war with paper targets at long range, then I guess my rifle is well suited.

When was the last time you were in "combat" with your personal rifle? As an LEO, you stand a better chance of it than most, if you are allowed to carry it with you on patrol, but still...most of us enjoy our rifles as a hobby or home defense (in extreme conditions such as riots, etc).

Last time I was concerned with combat, I had a rifle issued to me by Uncle Sam. I did not build it or buy it myself.

Not sure how much different rails or grips would detract from "combat effectiveness". Often, parts that are higher in quality can be added to your rifle to make it perform better.

If your train of thought holds true, then my jeep must be an unreliable POS. It has parts from different manufacturers. They allow it to perform a function better than it did with the factory parts. Hmmm...

Just bustin' your balls Strat.

Originally Posted by Strat

building a rifle with parts from 10 different manufactures is a nightmare, sure it might all bolt together but it is not something I would want to take to combat, more like a range toy. If you want the real thing get a complete military grade system, just because the manufacture says it's "mil spec" means nothing, anyone can legally use that word. Unless the company that made it is a government contractor and actually has access to the Technical Data Package, it's not true mil-spec. An easy way to tell is if they post what the specs are right next the word mil-spec, then you can look them up to see it they match.

A good example is Bushmaster, they will tell you they are a "Government contractor" and technically they would not be lying. In the early 90's they shipped $35,000 worth of guns and parts to the US Government for evaluation. Every gun failed and the government said no thanks. The commercial AR market is overflowing with half truth and all out BS, even the best commercial manufacturers have to play games to make money. That is why a military grade AR is the way to go, there are billions of man hours invested in every gun and with the military contracts driving down the civilian price you get the best gear at an affordable price.

[RSOVJR]

I agree somewhat with Strat... Barrel, bolt and carrier, upper and lower from the same manufacturer. Some rifles you can't get seperate uppers and lowers because they actually make a pair when they design/build them. But everything else... go hogwild according to what specifically works for your needs.

My rifle needs an optic, I'm still deciding what I really want for it. Leaning towards a TA-01NSN. I like acogs.

[racinghoss]

Originally Posted by RSOVJR

I agree somewhat with Strat... Barrel, bolt and carrier, upper and lower from the same manufacturer. Some rifles you can't get seperate uppers and lowers because they actually make a pair when they design/build them. But everything else... go hogwild according to what specifically works for your needs.

My rifle needs an optic, I'm still deciding what I really want for it. Leaning towards a TA-01NSN. I like acogs.

I see the sense in what he said too. Like I said, I was just busting his balls.

[Gazer]

Originally Posted by RSOVJR

Most common pistols and shotguns as well have more penetration than 5.56 in common construction walls. There's a reason most SRT/SWAT/whatever is going to m4's and sbr's at that.

So if you lined up like 5 sheets of drywall and shot at them with a 9mm HP,5.56 FMJ,and 00 Buckshot... you think the 5.56 would have the least penetration of all of them?

I'm not sure I can buy that. The 9mm HP is going to expand and slow down faster, plus it's traveling at like 1,100 fps. The 5.56 is not going to expand as much and it's traveling almost 3 times faster, say 2,800 to 3,100 fps. This has been something I've heard mentioned several times... you don't want rifles for home defense unless there's no one around except you and the burglar. What am I missing?

On a somewhat related side note, I'm sure you're aware that if it goes before a jury and you're prosecuted in civil court then it will look much more menacing that you used an "evil black rifle" for protection. I think that might come off as "rambo over there was going ape $hit with no concern for public safety." Now for rioting, yes absoutely an AR would be your go to weapon. A single burglar or maybe two burglars then I'll stick with the G19 and weapon mounted light. Easier for maneuvering anyway.

[Gazer]

Originally Posted by RSOVJR

There's a reason most SRT/SWAT/whatever is going to m4's and sbr's at that.

I would attribute that to the obvious fact of not wanting to be undergunned. The "don't bring a knife to a gun fight" type of thing. If you're served an arrest warrant on someone who might be armed with an AK47 then you don't want to walk in with a semi-auto pistol if you have the capability of using a AR15. That said, in Maui the SRT team uses MP40's. They have AR's in the armory but they don't get used for anything except training.

[T-Bone]

Originally Posted by PlayN_Mud

Alright, finally got the time to take a photo of mine.



Specs:

RRA Lower
RRA Stage 2 Trigger
VLTOR MUR-1A Upper
YHM Specter Length FF Rail
Denny's Guns Super M16 BCG
BCM Gunfighter Gen4 Charging Handle
Noveske 16.1 Recon Barrel SS
Smith Vortex FH
Harris Bipod
Magpul MAID OD
Magpul UBR OD
Magpul MBUS OD
Magpul Ladder Rail Covers OD
Magpul 20Rd Pmags OD

Clean Rifle, how are the MBUS sights holding up? I wouldn't mind trying them out on another rifle. Also the UBR Stocks are a cool concept, the only problem I have with them is, that they add a little to much weight for my right arm to handle(thanks to Iraq).

[murphyslaw]

Stock bushmaster. Works fine for me, has not failed me on any level. First time out with it, I was blowing away corona bottles at 40yards with the factory open sights.

[Strat]

I believe I am qualified to say anyone here has the potential to understand combat from first hand experience, you don't have to be LEO,Military, security, or a force contractor to defend yourself ,or another person, in extreme conditions.

A good military grade rifle will cost you $1200 new, it's not expensive to have the massive R&D of the US Government at your disposal. The difference is in the details you won't notice unless you know what your looking for, I am just starting to understand this. I am embarrassed that I ever posted about POF. POF makes crap! They stole my $2800.00 and left me with a pile of junk. I would not touch a POF if they paid ME to deploy it!
I regret passing bum scoop to you guys.

AR15 rifles make great entry tools because of the new technology available in ammunition. The days of SS109 being the standard choice are long gone, we still live with the idea of SS109 traveling through an entire house and killing someone walking down the street but now we have rounds that won't penetrate residential sheet rock walls. Using MP40's indoors is old school to some people. Submachine guns don't have the power of a carbine and are more likely to over penetrate.

Rick, "range toy" is not a derogatory term.

RH, thanks for busting my balls jarhead, Now go ask the PRiC E-7 for a new grid square, mines worn out.

[murphyslaw]

I could use a 5lb bucket of elbow grease.

[RSOVJR]

Originally Posted by Gazer

So if you lined up like 5 sheets of drywall and shot at them with a 9mm HP,5.56 FMJ,and 00 Buckshot... you think the 5.56 would have the least penetration of all of them?

I'm not sure I can buy that. The 9mm HP is going to expand and slow down faster, plus it's traveling at like 1,100 fps. The 5.56 is not going to expand as much and it's traveling almost 3 times faster, say 2,800 to 3,100 fps. This has been something I've heard mentioned several times... you don't want rifles for home defense unless there's no one around except you and the burglar. What am I missing?

On a somewhat related side note, I'm sure you're aware that if it goes before a jury and you're prosecuted in civil court then it will look much more menacing that you used an "evil black rifle" for protection. I think that might come off as "rambo over there was going ape $hit with no concern for public safety." Now for rioting, yes absoutely an AR would be your go to weapon. A single burglar or maybe two burglars then I'll stick with the G19 and weapon mounted light. Easier for maneuvering anyway.

I hate to break it to you as well as derail the thread somewhat... but you are way off base. It *is* somewhat related, though.

Don't be a "normal" cop and not know the capabilities and characteristics of what you are issued and expected to use. Sure would suck to be the "standard" and not hit what you're theoretically aiming at for 3/4 of your pistol's mag.

Hollowpoints clog and function as FMJ when hitting standard interior building walls. It's also the reason that heavy leather and/or heavy denim is used in front of ballistics gelatin for testing purposes. You need to simulate the clothing to determine what the terminal effects are. The mushrooming effect doesn't occur as much if at all with the removal of the hydraulic function of the meat it's designed and intended to hit. Gypsum and Plywood aren't bad guy.

FBI Firearms Training Unit tests show that submachinegun and handgun rounds penetrated more on average than .223/5.56mm rounds in typical interior construction and tissue.


My "evil black rifle" is the same design and caliber of weapon that is used as a patrol rifle for military and police. Your ease of maneuvering is because you haven't maneuvered with a rifle in tactical environments for any significant amount of time. Nothing personal, but your range time you have as Air force combined with LEO time doesn't even add up to the range time I had from Private to Private First Class.



More stuff for you to look at and read about it:




This image is after penetrating ONE wall, into calibrated 10% ballistic gelatin.


The Call-Out Bag
by Gunsite Training Center Staff


A Comparison of .223 Penetration vs. Handgun Calibers
The .223 shoulder-fired weapon systems (e.g., AUG, CAR) have received some recent interest as indoor tactical weapons for special operations teams. increased power, longer effective distances, and greater tactical flexibility have been cited as positive factors of the .223 systems over 9me SMG-type weapon systems. Other authors (Fackler, et all) have postulated greater capa-bility for tissue damage and incapacitation of the .223 rifle cartridge over the 9mm projectile fired from handguns or SMGs. Negative considerations for the indoor use of the .223 weapon systems focus on over-penetration of projectiles and possible subsequent liability.
Our effort was made to compare the penetration characteristics of various .223 bullets to various handgun bullets fired into test barriers representing indoor and outdoor building walls. We felt that the following test might mimic shots fired from inside a building, through the internal rooms, out the exterior wall, and into another similar building nearby. A comparison of wall penetration effects by a variety of handgun calibers versus the effects of .223 FMJ ball, .223 SP, and .223 HP, under these same conditions, was expected to substantiate other findings reported or provide new information to those interested in this area of ballistics.
Two interior test walls were constructed using a wood 2x4 frame with standard drywall board attached to both sides. Two exterior test walls were made using wooden frames with drywall board attached to one side and exterior grade T1-11 wooden siding attached on the other (exterior) side. R-19 fiberglass insulation batting (Dow Coming) was stapled inside the two exterior test wails. To maintain test medium consistency, no wooden cross beams, electrical fixtures, conduits, or electrical wiring were placed in any of the test walls.
The test walls were placed in the following sequence to mimic shots fired from. inside a building, through two internal rooms, out the building, and into another similarly constructed building:
A. Interior wall #1 was placed 8 feet from the shooting position.
B. Interior wail #2 was placed 8 feet beyond interior wall #1.
C. Exterior wall #1 was placed 8 feet beyond interior wail #2. (Exteri-or side facing away from the shooter.)
D. Exterior wall #2 was placed 15 feet beyond exterior wall #1. (Exterior side facing toward the shooter.)
All calibers tested were fired from a position 8 feet in front of interior wall #l, so the bullet trajectory would travel in sequence through each of the succeeding test walls. Each caliber tested was chronographed and all firing results were videotaped for archive files.
The following results were obtained:
1. All handgun calibers exited exterior wall #1. This means they exited the "house" after passing through two interior "rooms," then entered another "house" to impact into the berm. The handgun caliber which demonstrated the least penetration was .22 LR Lightning.
2. The only calibers which did NOT exit the "house" were .223 (5.56) soft point and hollow point loaded bullets.
3. All projectiles demonstrated directional changes in their trajectory after passing through the first interior wall. The greatest directional changes (10 inches+ yaw) were shown by 9mm and .40 S&W projectiles.
4. Directional changes in bullet trajectory appeared to increase in magnitude with each test wall the projectile passed through.
The penetration characteristics of projectiles have long been believed to be primarily determined by a relationship of bullet mass, bullet shape, bullet velocity, and bullet construction. The penetration differences of .223 soft point and hollow point projectiles versus the effects from .223 full metal jacket may be due to differences in bullet construction. The differential effects on penetration due to bullet construction shown with the .223 are different and appear greater in magnitude than those encountered when handgun bullet construction is modified. Since .223 projectile velocities are threefold greater than those of handgun projectiles, the increased magnitude of bullet velocity might account for the differences in bullet trajectory and penetration distance. The deviated trajectory of hollow point handgun projectiles was also greater than the deviation found with full metal jacketed handgun bullets; again, possibly due to contact point deformation. The preceding study more than ever identifies the need for a personal emphasis of marksmanship and tactical fundamentals. The shooter is responsible for the bullets that go downrange. Practice, be aware, manage your trigger, and watch your front sight!
Many thanks to Jack Furr, Ron Benson, Pete Wright, and Seth NadeI, U.S. Customs, for conducting and reporting this test.
.22 LR 40 gr Lightning 899 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
9mm 147gr Win JHP 948 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
9mm 147 gr Win JHP 1004 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.40 S&W 180 gr FMJ 941 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.40 S&W 180 gr Black Talon JHP 981 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.45 ACP 230 gr Win FMJ ball 867 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
.45 ACP 230 gr HydraShok JHP 851 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.223 (5.56) 55 gr Fed FMJ ball 2956 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.223 (5.56) 55 gr Rem SP 3019 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
.223 (5.56) 55 gr Fed JHP 3012 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
.223/5.56 Penetration Tests vs. .40 S&W and 12 ga. Slug
Overview
The research on the penetration of .223 ammunition has been completed. In an effort to make research more meaningful, testing consisted of handgun and shotgun ammunition in the same testing medium. The final results were that the .223 demonstrated less penetration capability than the 12 gauge slug and the .40S&W [handgun round].
Testing Medium Type 250A Ordnance Gelatin was cast into blocks, 6"x6"x16". The process used is that which is recommended by Col. M. Fackler, Director of the US Army Wound Ballistics Laboratory. This is a 10% mixture, 1Kg of gelatin to 9000ml of H2O. This type of gelatin accurately simulates human body tissue in terms of bullet penetration.
A small piece of wall was constructed to duplicate the standard exterior walls found in [the Pacific Northwest] area. This piece of wall was sheeted with ½" wafer board, covered with a 2nd piece of ½" wafer board to simulate siding. This wall was built using a 2x4 frame and finished on the inside with ½" sheet rock. The interior [of the wall] was lined with fiberglass insulation.
Weapons Used
CAR-15, cal .223 Rem./5.56x45mm with a 16" barrel.
Glock M22, cal .40S&W.
Remington 870, 12 ga.
Ammunition Used
Federal .223 Remington, 55 grain HP.
Winchester .40S&W, 180 grain HP.
Federal 12 ga., 2 ¾", rifled slug.
Procedure
All rounds were fired from a distance of 12 feet. After each round was fired, its penetration was recorded and bullet performance noted. After a bullet was fired into the [bare] gelatin, another bullet of the same type was fired through the section of wall and into the gelatin. This was done in order to determine its penetration potential in the event a stray round were to hit the wall of a building.
Results Caliber Testing medium Penetration Condition of bullet
.223 Rem. gelatin only 9.5" two pieces
.223 Rem. wall & gelatin 5.5" * fragmented
.40S&W gelatin only 13.5" mushroomed
.40S&W wall & gelatin 22" * no deformation
.40S&W wall & gelatin 22" * no deformation
.40S&W† wall & gelatin 19.5" * slight deformation
12 ga. wall & gelatin 27.5" mushroomed
* these measurements do not include penetration of the 6" wall.
† CCI Gold Dot.
Summary
The 55 grain HP .223 has less penetration than any of the other ammunition tested. Based on the results of this testing, there appears to be no basis for concern regarding the overpenetration of the .223 [HP] round. In fact, it seems even safer in this regard than .40 S&W handgun ammunition.
The hollow point cavity in the .40S&W round filled with material when shot through the wall. This caused [these bullets] to fail to expand when they entered the gelatin. As a result, they penetrated 8.5" farther than when shot directly into the gelatin.
When the .223 [HP] was shot through he wall it began to fragment and as a result penetrated the gelatin only 5.5".
Because the .223 [HP] begins to break up on impact, it has less potential for damage or injury than the 12 ga. in the event of a ricochet. The .223 [HP] is obviously safer in an urban environment than the 12 ga. with slugs or buckshot.
Additional testing conducted proved that the .223 would penetrate a car door or glass. The .223 rounds fired into windshields began to break up after entering the glass and did not retain much energy. In most cases these rounds split in two.

[Gazer]

Originally Posted by RSOVJR

My "evil black rifle" is the same design and caliber of weapon that is used as a patrol rifle for military and police. Your ease of maneuvering is because you haven't maneuvered with a rifle in tactical environments for any significant amount of time. Nothing personal, but your range time you have as Air force combined with LEO time doesn't even add up to the range time I had from Private to Private First Class.

The test walls were placed in the following sequence to mimic shots fired from. inside a building, through two internal rooms, out the building, and into another similarly constructed building:

A. Interior wall #1 was placed 8 feet from the shooting position.
B. Interior wail #2 was placed 8 feet beyond interior wall #1.
C. Exterior wall #1 was placed 8 feet beyond interior wail #2.
D. Exterior wall #2 was placed 15 feet beyond exterior wall #1.

All calibers tested were fired from a position 8 feet

The following results were obtained:
1. All handgun calibers exited exterior wall #1. This means they exited the "house" after passing through two interior "rooms," then entered another "house" to impact into the berm.
2. The only calibers which did NOT exit the "house" were .223 (5.56) soft point and hollow point loaded bullets.

9mm 147gr Win JHP 948 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
9mm 147 gr Win JHP 1004 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.40 S&W 180 gr FMJ 941 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.40 S&W 180 gr Black Talon JHP 981 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.45 ACP 230 gr Win FMJ ball 867 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
.45 ACP 230 gr HydraShok JHP 851 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.223 (5.56) 55 gr Fed FMJ ball 2956 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.223 (5.56) 55 gr Rem SP 3019 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
.223 (5.56) 55 gr Fed JHP 3012 fps Captured in exterior wall #2

Good information. Here are my thoughts...

First, you're completely right about experience. My training is very limited on tactical movements with long guns. What I got from the Air Force was a joke. Luckily on deployment we had a competition for clearing rooms put on as a branch versus branch type of thing (for fun and to kill time). Those of us who wanted it, got a couple training courses in the evenings from some high speed Army guys. It was education but still overall pretty basic and short. The police academy had a lot of officer safety type classes for clearing rooms and movements but it was almost all focused on using a handgun, which makes sense considering most of the time that is what police have at their immediate disposal.

So I've got a little experience but not enough that I would truely feel comfortable clearing rooms with a AR. It seems like more of a burden to have to maneuver corners with something that long considering a pistol will work just as well for shots that aren't going to be more than 15 feet. Even during Active Shooter training with simunition at the high school (night time) we only used Glocks. They don't focus much on AR and Shotgun platforms. I enjoy shooting but I'm no expert on the topic. I can't spout off exact ammunition balistics for every caliber made, I only know what I read in the NRA mags or what I see people post online at places like ARFCOM. Shooting is a hobby for me but not something I study much about.

Now back to what I quoted of yours... I cut out the part which seemed the most relevant (the results). I highlighted the calibers I use in the results.

I use .223 55grain FMJ... which is probably the most common round you see on the shelf for an AR so it would not surprise me if most people used that aswell, I don't know that though. But anyway... the test says it penetrated the walls. The soft point and hollow point were the ones which didn't penetrate the walls. Then the 9mm round results say some penetrate the walls and some don't. So it's 50/50 I guess? But going off the results posted I would be better served to use my 9mm JHP and have a 50/50 chance of penetration than use my .223 FMJ round and have guaranteed penetration of walls. Thats based off of what I currently stock for ammo though.

The good thing about that information is that it lets me know I would be smart to buy .223 soft point ammo for home defense and then I would have much less to worry about. I guess it's the "right tool for the job" kind of thing when picking ammo. I wouldn't say I was wrong about penetration of 5.56 for walls (it will penetrate as shown) but I would say I was uninformed or mistaken about the penetration of handgun calibers. I definietly didn't take into effect the fact that drywall is going to fill the cavity of the hollowpoint and not allow for expansion (mushrooming). Good information overall though, I learned something.

[RSOVJR]

remember, Wall #2 is simulating the exterior wall of another building, AKA Your Neighbors.

The other key thing to take away from all of that wall of text:

The human body is a pretty darn efficient bullet trap. Use it.

Back to the originally scheduled thread programming

[Gazer]

Originally Posted by Strat

Anyone here has the potential to understand combat from first hand experience, you don't have to be LEO,Military, security, or a force contractor to defend yourself ,or another person, in extreme conditions.

Defending yourself (even in extreme conditions) isn't really combat in the way I would take it to mean you need a rifle which is top notch. If you're using something day in and day out and it sees harsh conditions such as deployment to the desert where it's getting used everyday then I understand the need for extremely well built equipment. Having to grab an AR from your safe and defend your home in a riot is much different. You're not going to have mud and sand in your weapon, your not going days without a chance to clean it after firing a thousand rounds. If that description matches your definition of "home defense" then you need to move to a safer neighborhood lol. I think you get what I'm saying though, home defense does not put the demands on a weapon that you will have when being deployed to somewhere like Afghanistan.

An example is an optic like ACOG. From everything I've ever heard or read they are top notch, and you pay for a hefty price for that. It makes sense when it will be abused day in and day out for months on end. The difference is that you don't "need" a $1,000 optic for home defense. That is a luxury, not a necesity. I would feel just as comfortable with something like a $200 Burris Red Dot for the occasional plinking or home defense. The idea that any of us will ever subject our "range toys" to real punishing conditions is pretty unlikely IMO.

Another example would be taking a look at some of the rifles which come back from deployments, they look like they been pretty been up as far as scratches and uppers/lowers not fitting as tight as they once did. I know people (myself included) who have owned their AR for 5 or 10 years and it doesn't have a single scratch on it because it's only a range toy so to speak. Unless you do as the members on ARFCOM make fun of... throw your AR down the driveway a few times to give it that "authentic" look.