AR15/M4 Builds

[Strat]

Part of our armorer course (by Specialized Armament) was being able to distinguish commercial grade parts from Military grade. The Bushy snapped in two, I held the remnants in my hands and compared them side by side with a Colt, there was a big difference, think D60 vs D30. My Olympic hand guards/ stock were of the same quality as the Bushy, I also replaced them years ago.

[Strat]

Originally Posted by Gazer

That doesn't make much sense to me. Why is being "Mil-Spec" so important if only certain things that are mil-spec are excellent products? What does that say about their testing? Doesn't that contradict the whole point you're trying to make?

I never said Mil-spec = excellent products. I am talking about military grade weapons. My Olympic CAR-15 and a Colt M16A3 look very similar and function exactly the same but there not made the same. All the military weapons I have ever used were top shelf, M60E3, M240G, M249, M203, Mk19, even the Mossburg 500's. The reason I don't like the M9 is because it is 9mm, this in itself is not always a bad thing. IMO you have to now how to shoot a 9mm to get the most effectiveness from it. It has some benefits over the 40, 45, and 10mm if you know what your doing. Otherwise I don't like the shape of the grip and the safety, both are matters of choice. The M9 is still a good weapon, I would just rather have a Glock or 1911.

Forget the term "mil-spec", it means nothing in commercial AR's. It sells guns, thats why they use it.

[Gazer]

Originally Posted by Strat

Go with the military contractors to make it easy. This rule only applies to basic issue AR/M16's. I have used other military gear that was junk, I was forced to carry an M9 in Africa and that sucked!

Second separate quote below

I never said Mil-spec = excellent products. I am talking about military grade weapons. All the military weapons I have ever used were top shelf, M60E3, M240G, M249, M203, Mk19, even the Mossburg 500's.

So first you said go with military contractors who make weapons because the military has high standards, but you say this only applies to AR15/M16. Then I ask why it only applies to AR15/M16 if military contractors make the best weapons. Then you basically say every weapon the military uses is good in your opinion. You contradicted yourself unless I'm missing something.

On and in unrelated news... I hear more trash talked on Olympic Arms for being cheap (in build quality not price) than pretty much any other AR. Whether it's factual or just people talking, I cannot say for certain.

[T-Bone]

Okay, so not all of us have gone to an armorers course. And Im always cool with learning new things. And I don't mind when topics change to an extent. But this would obviously make a interesting thread in its self. I was interested in seeing people "Builds" and "Projects" like Rick intended when he started this thread.
Strat, I look at some of the threads you've started.

Exactly!
Almost all of the above posts were Wayyy off topic.

(Now back to the original subject matter)

I want to be able to talk about the topic, not about converting you or anyone else to a religion. This is a very interesting subject that most people have never thought of. It's breaking new ground here, the only question is can you handle it?

This is not the direction I wanted us to go in, I did not intend for us to talk exclusively about Christen related material. If this is something that bothers you please know it was never my intention to make you feel uncomfortable.

Also some stuff from this thread..

building a rifle with parts from 10 different manufactures is a nightmare, sure it might all bolt together but it is not something I would want to take to combat, more like a range toy. If you want the real thing get a complete military grade system, just because the manufacture says it's "mil spec" means nothing, anyone can legally use that word. Unless the company that made it is a government contractor and actually has access to the Technical Data Package, it's not true mil-spec. An easy way to tell is if they post what the specs are right next the word mil-spec, then you can look them up to see it they match.

Part of our armorer course (by Specialized Armament) was being able to distinguish commercial grade parts from Military grade. The Bushy snapped in two, I held the remnants in my hands and compared them side by side with a Colt, there was a big difference, think D60 vs D30. My Olympic hand guards/ stock were of the same quality as the Bushy, I also replaced them years ago.

Is your Olympic on its way to being put together with parts from ten different manufactures? Is there a limit on how many other parts you can put on a rifle before its no good? (i.e. 10 )
Like Racinghoss said....

If your train of thought holds true, then my jeep must be an unreliable POS. It has parts from different manufacturers. They allow it to perform a function better than it did with the factory parts. Hmmm...

I don't go to the 4X4 Buildup Threads and tell people they should get a HMMVE because they got a government contract and went through extensive testing. Or that they shouldn't get a after market lift on there jeep since Jeep did not engineer the product for it.
I built my DPMS with all DPMS parts(well at least the ones that make it function) the bolt carrier, bolt, recievers, lower parts kit, the barrel. Then I changed my barrel, because DPMS does not make a Noveske barrel(neither does COLT). I also changed my Magazine release, to an AMBI Mag release. (I would do the same to a COLT if I had one.) I know you've seen my right arm, so who's to say how long my right arm will hold up. Colt also does not make a Daniel Defense 9.5 M4 rail and I cannot see how COLT's Plastic hand guards would be better than my Free Float Daniel Defense 9.5 M4 rail even if they don't break when you hit them with a hammer. Also we had Knights ARM. quad rails when I was in the ARMY which was just 9 months ago. They never hindered the rifles from doing there intended job.
I know there are a some truths to what you have informed this board with. Its great that you were able to take part in the armorers course. I would love to take part in an armorers course. I cannot help but imagine what it might be like if I were to go to a Rock River Arms armorers course.... Maybe I might be telling people how superior RRA 's are.
Probably not though.
I just want to see peoples AR Builds. Not FEEL like I need to drink some Koolaid.

[NewbieFJ60]

Speaking of that do I need to make an appointment or just drop my parts off ?

[T-Bone]

Originally Posted by NewbieFJ60

Speaking of that do I need to make an appointment or just drop my parts off ?

Just drop them off.

[Gazer]

Originally Posted by NewbieFJ60

Speaking of that do I need to make an appointment or just drop my parts off ?

Appointment with who? And for what?

[Strat]

T-Bone,
Rick asked about AR parts, I gave my input and it was in the scope of the thread. If I'm asked to expound or clarify my opinion I am obliged to answer. Your comparison of me taking the thread off topic is a good observation but it's not the same situation. If Rick had asked me not to post I would comply, unlike the referenced material.

The analogy of the Hummer is not in context, our jeeps are not used in matters of deadly force, we are talking about rifles. This is not the same as putting Dana 60 Axles under a CJ7.

The plastic hand guard was an example of quality, not components you should have on your rifle. I would much rather have a Knights rail than a stock Colt hand guard. I wanted an integrated light for my Olympic, thus the new hand guards. it's common sense, the fire control system is important not the shoulder stock you install on the military receiver extension.

I never went to a "Colt course", the course was done by Advanced Armament, if you re-read my posts I also mentioned Hydromatic and FN, there are other military grade systems that I don't remember. RR arms does not have a military contract, going to a RR course is not going to change that fact.

Anyone here is free to do as they will with their gear but when I see people making the same mistakes I did why not point it out? I wish someone had done that for me years ago. I learned the hard way and I am always excited to help people avoid that.

You really need to attend this course. After you are done you will see that many of us drank the kool-aid BEFORE attending NOT after. This was not an advertisement for Colt, it points out that there are differences between military and commercial grade AR's. If you might ever use you AR in defense of life why not have the advantage of military refinement?

I hope this makes sense.

[Strat]

Originally Posted by Gazer

Appointment with who? And for what?

T-Bone works at a gun shop. It sounds like they are going to assemble some parts for Rick.

[Strat]

Originally Posted by Gazer

So first you said go with military contractors who make weapons because the military has high standards, but you say this only applies to AR15/M16. Then I ask why it only applies to AR15/M16 if military contractors make the best weapons. Then you basically say every weapon the military uses is good in your opinion. You contradicted yourself unless I'm missing something.

On and in unrelated news... I hear more trash talked on Olympic Arms for being cheap (in build quality not price) than pretty much any other AR. Whether it's factual or just people talking, I cannot say for certain.

The comparison I intended to make was between AR/M16 (or weapons) and some unrelated issue like cold weather gear, snow skis/shoes, knives, water filters, and boots. Better examples of all that stuff can be found on the civilian market. My dislikes for the M9 are personal. The PRC77 I referenced in the above quote was a radio not a weapon. Thanks for pointing that out, it was confusing.

[T-Bone]

It looks like you were off topic way before Rick asked you anything. I don't see where he asked you about parts, unless it was in a PM. Any how, like I said this would obviously make a Great thread in its self.
I don't think the Jeep and HMMVE example are a bad one at all either. My jeep could take a life just like a gun can take a life. Also it can protect or not protect my life while Im just driving day to day.

[Gazer]

Is colt currently producing any weapons for the military? I know Rick said something about them losing their contract and I can't remember if you cleared that up for us. Only weapons I ever used in the chair force were made by FN or Beretta. What are colt's current production arms for U.S. military?

After all that discussion I still have to say I'm more than willing to put my life in the arms of my RRA, not that I should ever have to. If it did come down to it then I will most likely be using it to fire off a mag or two, I will never be fighting off a hundred people and expending thousands of rounds through my AR. If my RR Arms can't hold up for a mag or two then I would know by now, I only fire it three or four times per year but it's never had a malfunction since I bought it in early 2004. Seriously, not a single one.

[AK_Ford]

According to wikipedia, colt is only producing the M4 for the military. The M16 is being produced by Fabrique Nationale (FN, ownes winchester and browning).

[AK_Ford]

And strat, everyone on this board knows that you've "been there, done that" or whatever. I thank you for you service. But, it doesn't make you the lone expert in all things firearms, survival, safety,government, military ect. Other people have opinions too, and you really dont need to get your .02 in there on every little subject when its not asked for or needed. One of these days your gonna make a complete fool of yourself like you did on pirate. I lost alot of respect for you after that little fiasco.

[Strat]

Hmmm, perhaps I was wrong.

With a few different people voicing their concern it would be foolish not to take it serious. Thanks for the perspective. I'll reconsider how much I share in the future and how I do it.

Thanks again.

[murphyslaw]

Strat, People often mistake us for people we are not.

More then once I have been called rude, un-humble, bull headed and boisterous. I call it confident.

Some times out confidence can get ahead of us. I have stepped on my own toes many times, thats why I wear steel toe shoes.

It is hard, but I have been trying to tell myself when I need not apply. More times then not I side on the side.

In example, this summer at ARP. It was the 4th of july weekend. The parents of a 2yr old had locked him buckled in his car seat in there black Tahoe with the windows up. The butte fire rescue dept showed up to get the doors open. I sat and watched fighting myself not to rush in and "show 'em how to roll". After 15 min, I hear one guy yell to another "get the window punch". I then ran over, offered my help. Took the door tool and in under 15 sec I had the door open. I handed it back and told them I used to use one for a living and walked away.

In the pass, I would have just ran up. And pushed my way in and took over. When no one wanted any help. My actions would have been viewed as rude, and intrusive. Yet the way I did it, they were thankful and appreciative.

[Gazer]

Originally Posted by murphyslaw

More then once I have been called rude, un-humble, bull headed and boisterous. I call it confident.

In the pass, I would have just ran up. And pushed my way in and took over. When no one wanted any help. My actions would have been viewed as rude, and intrusive. Yet the way I did it, they were thankful and appreciative.

Your example was good. I think you can still be confident and capable but yet not be perceived as a "c0cky know it all." It's the way you approach the situation. Rather than stand by and wait or rush in and take over, I would simply walk up and inform them what I do for a living (in your example you were obvisouly qualified to help) and ask if they would like some assistance. That way you've made them aware but it's still their decision since they're in charge of the scene.

We were told to handle things this way in the police academy, which you probably know since you attended one I think? For example if you were flying on vacation and someone was causing a scene on the airplane then you should approach the flight attendent quietly and inform them what you do for a living and let them know if they require assistance then you would be glad to help. That way you're not rushing in and taking over, yet your also not just standing around while something turns from bad to worse.

The same can be said for the internet IMO. It's good to offer advice about what the best products are but telling people their purchase is inferior and will break is not gonna go over well and is likely not true considering there are many board members who own Bushy, RRA, DPMS, etc... and I bet none of them have ever had a catastrophic malfunction of their weapon. It seems like you probably have good information to add but the way you do it is not going over well because you come off as the "know it all" because you attended an armorers course.

But anyway... how about some more pics of AR15's!!!

You haven't even posted your pics Strat! Where's your stuff??

[tyrex13]

Here's what keeps me safe at night:





Stag 2L
Magpul Moe Grip and Handguard
Larue BUIS
Surefire G2 in Viking Mount
Blue Force Gear Victory 2 point sling
55 gr Hornady TAP (red box ballistic tip)

[dtshooter]

Nice LEFTY!

[tyrex13]

Here is my M16A4 clone project:



RRA Lower
Model 1 Sales 20" Kit
Govt. Profile 20" Chrome lined barrel 1/7 twist
Matech flip up rear sight

All I need now is a KAC hand guard and an ACOG.

[tyrex13]

Here are the "twins"... at least they were until I put an MI #17 handguard I had left over on one. These belong to my one year old son and my yet to be conceived second child.



Double Star Lowers
Del-Ton kits
M4 profile 16" chrome lined 1/7 barrels
Larue BUIS's
GI Slings

[tyrex13]

Here's another Lefty:





Stag 2TL
Larue BUIS
EoTech 512 with GG&G caps
Pentagon 3w LED light w/ IR illuminator @ pressure switch
Tango Down VFG
Troy QD front sling swivel
VTAC padded 2 point sling

[tyrex13]

Family photo

[StealthTacoma]

Basically done with this one, after $3K or so.

[wasillashack]

My 2 cents, and nothing more. I owned a Colt SP-1 and had it fire without the bolt fully locked, it blew the upper to pieces, I never found the rear sight. I've owned two Colt AR's, my first and last. The name on any product does not insure quality or perfection.