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Old 02-11-2014, 08:43 AM   #26
Hughiam
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Default Re: Jim Creek Fees

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Originally Posted by RWC View Post
Hugh,

The Borough itself has a platted public easement leading to the trailhead for RST 17, which is a State recognized public right-of-way. I don't understand the legal rationale for imposing a fee on people passing through so long as they remain within the easement/ROW while they are on Borough property.

I recognize that the parking area itself is Borough land, and so a parking fee could be imposed for people who need to use that area during the day for parking a tow vehicle and trailer, or to park a camper--is that what the Borough is intending?

Also, considering that the Borough does not have a police force, what is the expected enforcement mechanism?

I do appreciate that the Borough has taken an active interest in providing some services in the parking area, and I agree with reasonable fees.
RWC, and all
Thanks for the questions! We(borough) are getting away from calling the fees "parking" and going with a simple term of "use". Its certainly splitting hairs, but we got significant push back from people who used different facilities and accessed the site by bicycles. Their claim was that they didn't "park" so they weren't paying a fee. Okay, I get that, but really? So we changed the term to "use".

The borough(at least from where I sit) isn't going to put up a toll booth to check people that drive in from the road, pass through the borough land and onto the KPRUA. We are attempting to collect fees to offset the cost of operation.

Enforcement or staffing the area really isnt on the horizen. Like most of our facilities(except the pools/ice rink) the paypipe is there and we expect most folks to follow the rules. We do put reminders on the windshield when we find vehicles not in compliance.

The borough is very interested in improving the facility, not shutting it down. The reason for the Master Plan was to keep it open and improve it.

As a point of interest, as part of Borough Code anyone using any borough land for any purpose must get a permit to be on the land. Ill bet 90% of the people here didn't know that, and Ill bet lunch that 99.9999% of the people that do use borough land for some purpose don't get a permit. Ill win that bet cause I know the real numbers. But by code, if you hunt, fish, trap, atv, bird watch, hike etc... you must get a permit from the borough to do so. This is nothing new, been on the books for years. By putting the fee pipes at borough facilities/land/attractions, we(my deparment) are able to follow code and encourage the use of the facilites. If we did nothing, we would not be doing our jobs as perscribed by code.

Could the code be changed? Yep, see my post above about contacting your Assembly person.

There have been comments about not using the restroom, so why should I pay a fee? Well that is certainly up to you. I have heard this about many facilities and I have staked out the restrooms at various facilites to monitor their use and we keep track of how much TP is used and I can tell you that the restrooms at JC and other facilties are heavily used. Maybe more kids and women than guys, but either way they are popular. The other reason that we put them in at various facilites is to reduce the amount of human waste and associated TP left on the ground in the parking areas. Prior to the RR's we would get complaints about TP and human waste and those complaints have gone down due to the RR's.

For those of us with kids, there is nothing worse than having your little ones come up to the tent with human waste on their shoes, or having your dog roll in it then jump in the truck.

One last note before I go was on taxes. As a homeowner you do pay taxes to support the borough. Approximately 90% of your taxes go to support the schools sytem, the remaining 10% is split(not equally) between Administration, Econ Development, Port, Attorney, Clerk, Planning, IT, Finance, DPS, EMS, and finally Recreation/Parks.

We get a very slim piece of that 10% and have to stretch it across a vast amount of services and sites.

Again I appreciate all the quesitions and comments! And the fact no large burning arrows have been slung this way!
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Old 02-11-2014, 09:44 AM   #27
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Default Re: Jim Creek Fees

I will note that because this is in a section that is only visible if you are logged in I suspect that a large number of Forum visitors may not see this. A thread about this, and Hugh's insite may reach a larger audience if put in a section visible to all.
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Old 02-11-2014, 09:55 AM   #28
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Default Re: Jim Creek Fees

While this is a great discussion, this is the proper forum for it. Not sure why it would be private. perhaps we can look into that.
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Old 02-11-2014, 02:44 PM   #29
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Default Re: Jim Creek Fees

Thanx Hugh for carrying the flag. I've grown tired of the ignorant, shoot from the hip, responses by folks. Especially on something I have worked on for years and years. (I wrote one of the first rough draft plans for developing the area long before KRUPA was even a dream).

The kind of mis-information that sets me off are statements like "manageing" land makes it easier to close, or words to that effect. We have plently of examples of access being closed where no "management" existed. I will argue that "managed" land is eaiser to keep open. When land is managed there is a person, department that we can corner.

Restrooms are one of the number one items requested by users. Yeah most men pee in the woods. Do your wife and daughters? If you spend anytime near one of these restrooms I challange you to observe for a few minutes and note the use. Then consider that all these peoples waste would have ended up at the edge of the parking lot. It's not a problem in low use areas. However at a place like Knik the waste gets to the point where it is a health problem. Even if your dog doesn't roll in it they track it into your rig, your house and sometimes your bed.

The fee is for the Boro land, a very small part of Knik. If you feel really strongly about not paying and don't trailer, you can take the Knik Glacier RS2477 rather than the Sexton trail.

Someday I hope to see the Boro land with developed OHV/ATV recreational features. Stuff that when we talk to the State is no go or the hurdle too high. Remember my post about the bridge we are building? And that we have to pay an annual fee and post a 1500$ bond? Or about the fees we will be paying to keep the Motor Musher Cabin? The Boro is not asking for this. As a result putting the Knik rock course on their land is far more attractive than on the State land like I had originally proposed.

Like I said, get involved, get educated. This stuff doesn't happen over night and even if you don't agree, you will have had a chance to voice your opinions before hand rather than rant after.
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Last edited by snowbear; 02-11-2014 at 02:45 PM.
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Old 02-11-2014, 02:48 PM   #30
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Default Re: Jim Creek Fees

I asked the board admin about making some of the board members only. I think most of the mods agreed it has value. We need a place where we can have disagreements and not be concerned about the antis using that information against us, driving wedges in our small community
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Old 02-11-2014, 02:58 PM   #31
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Default Re: Jim Creek Fees

Yes the land use topic should be private. However, because of the confusion that this sign is bringing and the impact it has for everyone using KRPUA maybe some of the info here needs to be shared with everyone. There is some good stuff here. Very informative and directly shows the importance of awareness and how the Borough is managed. The record has been set straight as to why and how. The masses need to be educated by it.
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Old 02-11-2014, 06:54 PM   #32
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Default Re: Jim Creek Fees

We should be able to cut & paste Hughs details into something in the general chat section.
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Old 02-11-2014, 07:00 PM   #33
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Default Re: Jim Creek Fees

If someone wanted to put together an informational post with the details I can sticky it.
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Old 02-11-2014, 09:16 PM   #34
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Default Re: Jim Creek Fees

Quote:
Originally Posted by snowbear View Post
We should be able to cut & paste Hughs details into something in the general chat section.
If Hugh is ok with that I think that would be well worth it. His response is very informative and nicely works in the increasingly forgotten fact that local government is still in fact the People. It's people. Soylent Government is made out of people.
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Old 02-12-2014, 12:03 AM   #35
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Default Re: Jim Creek Fees

At last nights' MSTC meeting we had a clarification on fees,the fee will be per vehicle, not per person, if If I am incorrect, Scott, please LMK. Another expense not mentioned AFAIK, is vandalism,if memory serves, this RR was arsoned last year.
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Old 02-12-2014, 10:51 AM   #36
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Default Re: Jim Creek Fees

Its up to you folks that own the forum how to proceed. I don't think I said anything on here that I wouldn't or haven't said publicly.

The only comment I would make is that as these threads get longer, sometimes people don't read all the text. If this thread was made public, it could get bad information out there from someone skimming the thread, even though its all here in black and white.

I was at Jim Creek yesterday and gave staff instructions this am on how to change the sign. We are of course in our skeleton crew mode right now, but it will change.

Hugh
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