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Old 06-11-2016, 11:29 PM   #1
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Default Sunvalley and MSTC

The area has been in lots of discussions during the last year and made the paper this week. It will be a topic of discussion at this Mondays meeting. Attached is a link to something someone posted on fb and I added some info about the Trails Council.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/5007...65715356765519


on second thot I bet non-fb users or non-members of that page can see it. So with great pain I'll copy and paste it here
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Old 06-11-2016, 11:29 PM   #2
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Default Re: Sunvalley and MSTC

The MatSu is picking up heat with the ATV trails in certain areas, specifically water crossings as noted in the news. I've been in touch with Scott Lapiene at the Mat-Su Trails Council Inc. They are looking for anyone and everyone who would be interested in getting pro-active, sitting down and coming up with a feasible plan to help save what we have. Scott has been super active in the trail maintenance department but he needs help.

The Mat-Su Trails Council Inc meets the 2nd Monday of the month @ 1900hrs. 1964 S. Cotten Dr, office is upstairs. This invite includes everyone in motorsports, not just bikes, ATV's and SxS's. We all benefit in the end.

How can you help? Show up and get involved and share the info with other like minded folks.

Thanks.

Edit:

To caveat the above, this goes way beyond the current climate as well. The MSTC has been VERY involved for all of us to include a ton of work within the Knik River PUA, Plumley-Maud and up Purintan to name a few.

It's all done on a volunteer basis and they need the extra hands. like emoticon(y)

And I just stole this off the Fish Hook Community Council Page. Much of what is now being discussed has been in the works and already talked about, except now it's being spotlighted in the news...

Dated 20 April..
At the April meeting several individuals in the community attended the FHCC to talk about the Moose Range and how the community interacted with and used the Moose Range for various activities. The Moose Range is a large tract of land along the eastern boundary of the Fishhook Community and draws users from from the Fishhook area and the surrounding areas.

MOOSE RANGE DISCUSSION
April 4, 2016 (1900 – 2015)
Government Peak Chalet
Scott Lapiene MatSu Trails Council Ed Harris
Dot Helm Joe Irvine FHCC
Kim Sollien FHCC Chuck West FHCC
Gene Backus Robin Turk
Ellory Gibbs FHCC Shane Barber
Bryan Cherry FHCC Matt Mobley
Dave Maler FHCC
Topics
1. Desire to maintain multi-use characteristics (snow machines, hikers, bikers, ATV/UTV, skiers, dog teams, hunting, shooting)
2. Bridges – status, size, need for more, funding, etc.,
3. Signs – where, who funds, language
4. Trail conditions – ruts and damage especially near access. Trail “growth” in swampy areas
5. Safety concerns – shooting in parking area
6. Parking area improvements
7. Concern over access – number of access points is diminishing with encroachment of new developments
8. Growth in number and character of visitors
9. Volunteers
Discussions
1. Consensus- maintain as multi-use area. The discussion focused on how best to preserve and improve the Moose Range.
2. Discussed history of the FHCC involvement in the Moose Range. Land is managed by the Department of Natural Resources (ADNR) which has a management plan but limited obligations or resources to enforce or review/change the plan.
3. Discussed conflicts – actual and anecdotal. None of the participants identified any direct conflicts although trash and shooting. Recently people have been shooting from the parking area nearby. Safety concern.
4. Access concerns. Most common access from the west side of the Moose Range is through Wendt Road although Boyd Road and the Odyssey Trail. Development along the south and west sides is creating concerns and forcing a concentration to Wendt Road because it is the only one with parking.
5. Scott Lapiene clarified the “generally allowed usage”, vehicle type and weight restrictions that the state recognizes. It is little unclear for some people as to what is allowed in the Moose Range. Joe reported that he had seen signs that pointed to Forest Service regulations.
6. Shane Barber and Matt Mobley related their observations about bridges over Wasilla Creek and possible relocation or improvements. One relocated bridge might be a better solution than the 2 bridges.
7. The group discussed approaches taken in other areas: Jim Creek, Slipper Lake. Shared experiences and information about methods and potential enforcement options learned from Jim Creek.
Proposed Solutions/Further Investigation
1. Move bridges over Wasilla Creek and consolidate into a single bridge. This would require funding. Possible funding? Lots of competition for funding right now. ROM: $20,000
2. Reroute trails to dryer ground. Requires coordination with??? Permits
3. Coordinate w/with other community councils which border the range
4. Develop shooting area. Simple, not formal. Push back existing area to create more obvious place plus backstop?
5. Signs – specifically “no shooting” in parking area. Other signage? TBD
6. Expand education efforts through clubs, signs, and word of mouth.
7. Enlist volunteers to remove litter. Part of community clean up?
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Old 06-11-2016, 11:30 PM   #3
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Default Re: Sunvalley and MSTC

My reply with info about the Trails Council:

Some additional info on the Mat-Su Trails Council Inc. We are the only multi-modal trails group in the valley. We work with all types of trails, motorized and non-motorized. In addition to the projects above we have done some significant snowmobile trail projects and developed small non-motorized trails around Bumpus Ball fields and behind Finger Lake Elementary School. One of our biggest accomplishments is the Palmer-Wasilla Bike Trail. What we do depends on the people that participate. During my tenure as Chair the focus has been more toward motorized uses. But the cold hard truth is that support and membership has wained severely in the last two years. I hear similar reports from other user groups. Still it is hard to take.

We would very much welcome some new blood. Folks with a desire to develop trails, folks willing to learn about the rules and regulations for making these projects happen, folks to help raise money. We have always taken the 'high road' when it comes to doing projects and raising money. It has earned us the respect of Land Mangers throughout the region in additon to the respect of several members of the Legislature. The result is that our phone calls are seldom ignored. I look forward to meeting people with a vision for continuing these efforts.

The MSTC has a small fee for membership. It's like 20 bucks. Everyone is welcome to participate, paid member or not. Paid membership numbers are important to the people we go to for funding or support. It's often the only thing these outsiders have to evaluate the strength and commitment of people to an organization. At this moment I am sitting on a grant application that I started for replacing some of the bridges because our paid membership numbers do not command the respect I think is required by the grant evauators. Membership drives and asking indivduals to join is not my strong point. I hope to see some of you Monday night.
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Old 06-12-2016, 10:21 AM   #4
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Default Re: Sunvalley and MSTC

Thank you for posting on a neutral/available to all service!! I've been following this as it pops up in several different circles, and find it amazing to see the different opinions that come along with each of the groups. Everything from "I will do what I wanna do" to "we must regulate!"
Kinda sad, I think the forum is still the best way to unify conversations......
I will be following this in all venues closely.
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Old 06-12-2016, 11:20 AM   #5
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Default Re: Sunvalley and MSTC

As one biologist quips, "Enough is enough".
The 'management' (near complete lack of) scheme and condition of the Moose Range is the very epitome of irresponsibility. It is more than shameful.

Major trails can no longer be called 'multi-use' - they are single use and damaging at that, bridges aside. Not even questionable.

Perhaps time to update some philosophies.
It is time to step back for remediation at the range, not holding onto recycled ideas proven unworkable and unaffordable. There is not enough money, there is no effective enforcement budget and it will not be forthcoming in the near future, so options are severely narrowed down- lawbreakers 'made this bed'.
(BTW, the Moose Range is not the only example where antiquated ideals are not serving.)

The lost $50K ORTAB grant for bridges would not even begin to fix this expanded mess now. Six digit territory now, at a minimum. And do we really think bridges for big rigs will be affordable, or even always utilized on every salmon stream that could benefit by them. A certain percentage of 'adventurers' will abuse and simply continue to fit the category of incompatible uses.
Supporting activities that have turned a high value area into such a mess on any level is just unwise. 'Self-policing" a proven myth, unfortunately.
Separated uses are accepted management techniques these days, for good reasons.
Not all activities are tenable in all habitats, contrary to AOC and AOAA's strident approaches. Those approaches only serve to maintain a support base.
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Old 06-12-2016, 07:10 PM   #6
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Old 06-12-2016, 07:21 PM   #7
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Old 06-12-2016, 11:57 PM   #8
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Default Re: Sunvalley and MSTC

Robert, who lost 50k from ortab for bridges?

While you make good points you loose them when you start in on comments like 'every salmon stream that could benefit by them'.

We work on one problem at a time.

When you come to the table you always bring the same message, oppose and close.

The problems in this area are not new. The bridges that were built 15 years ago were in response to the same problems! People have been working for the last five years that I know of, attempting to bring solutions to the table. Right or wrong, people don't step up to help until the $hit hits the fan.

One thing that is refreshing, that the article doesn't state but the community council minutes do, neither community that I was invited to work with want to restrict access.

If you want to solve the problems there is money available. It doesn't grow on trees and it takes hard work to get it. Jack C proved it can be done on the McRoberts Creek project. It may be more work than any current volunteer will do but it is there.

We will never rely on enforcement on our trail systems. It doesn't work on our highways why would we ever expect it to work in the back country?

We are grateful for folks that come to the table willing to look for and work on solutions. It sounds like some from the ATV community will be at Mondays meeting. If it's only one that's ok because sometimes one is all it takes.
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Old 06-13-2016, 07:20 AM   #9
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Default Re: Sunvalley and MSTC

I am actually surprised by the FHCCs outlook on this. When I first moved to the area was when they were finishing up the Gov Peak Chalet. Everyone I meet at the first meeting I attended was VERY anti motorized access to everything. Most of the folks are cross country skiers and road bikers and care not about ATV's trucks or snow machines. Even had a few people get pissy about riding our horse on the designated equestrian trails. I did find 2 old timers to the area have have a beef with the FHCC and together we have thrown quite a fit about how they have been presenting themselves. Perhaps its working.

In fact Sunvalley was brought up during the first CC meeting I ever went to. People were *****ing about the big trucks that have been going back there tearing everything up. And they didn't understand why the old gated got taken down because it was supposed to be a non motorized area.
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Old 06-13-2016, 08:17 AM   #10
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Default Re: Sunvalley and MSTC

I grew up in this area from the time that I was able to walk until now. My family was wheeling back there in buggies before fourwheelers or side by side were around. In a days wheeling out there you might see a local guy on a old big red three wheeler but that was it. I got my first buggy at 12 years of age and followed the same trails my dad and his generation wheeled on. In the summer it was every day out there pounding the trail. The damages to the area were never this bad. You can take all the pictures you want of the big tractor tires in the mud or the ruts in the bank coming out of the salmon stream but the fact is, it's not trucks or buggies doing this, it's population growth. Now days, on a sunny day you might see 30+ people back there and most are probably locals to the area and most drive side by sides. I'm not trying to say I've been there longer so it's mine. I'm just saying from a guy who has watched it very close from year to year it's not any 1 group or irresponsibility doing this. It's a combination of everything.

As for the salmon stream crap, it's funny how when the state disrupts a salmon stream it's ok but when I drop my tire in there some one is gunna pay. Anybody remember the first time Palmer fishhook was redone at Wasilla creek. The colvert was like 4 feet off the creek and all the salmon spawnd at the highway in the big pool. We use to use the colvert as a hillbilly kid high dive. No salmon could get passed. The trail along side the road ran right through the creek and the salmon would be spawning 10 feet away and it didn't faze them a bit. 20+ years later, state fixes the highway and now all of this sudden salmon can go upstream again.

I'm not sure what the answer would be to make it all go away. Bridges would help the salmon stream part and ya I'm sure not everyone would use them but it would show effort and it would show that the off road community does care about its wheeling grounds. Not everybody on wheelers and side by side use the current Bridges. Most of use go off roading to put our equipment to the test and see what it will do, not go around everything. My opinion on the whole thing is yes we should fix the stream crossings so we don't break the rules and look bad but other than that if it's a big mud hole and you don't want to go through it or can't make it, that's the name of the game. Rules won't fix stupid just like gun control won't keep the gun out of the criminals hands. Maybe my ramble helps, maybe it threw out a few things that haven't been thought of, maybe it pissed some people off, and maybe to some people I'm just part of the problem but hey, at least I had something to say that makes sense to a know nothing young buck such as myself.

All this being said, Scott I know your a "front runner" so to speak and very involved with this. I know you will make the right calls and fight for the right ideas to be put in place. Please keep us updated on the progress here.
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Old 06-13-2016, 08:23 AM   #11
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Default Re: Sunvalley and MSTC

Quote:
Originally Posted by murphyslaw View Post

In fact Sunvalley was brought up during the first CC meeting I ever went to. People were *****ing about the big trucks that have been going back there tearing everything up. And they didn't understand why the old gated got taken down because it was supposed to be a non motorized area.
I don't think it was ever a none motorized area. The gate was a attempt to keep rift raft out.
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Old 06-13-2016, 11:36 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snowbear View Post
Robert, who lost 50k from ortab for bridges?

While you make good points you loose them when you start in on comments like 'every salmon stream that could benefit by them'.

We work on one problem at a time.

When you come to the table you always bring the same message, oppose and close.

The problems in this area are not new. The bridges that were built 15 years ago were in response to the same problems! People have been working for the last five years that I know of, attempting to bring solutions to the table. Right or wrong, people don't step up to help until the $hit hits the fan.

One thing that is refreshing, that the article doesn't state but the community council minutes do, neither community that I was invited to work with want to restrict access.

If you want to solve the problems there is money available. It doesn't grow on trees and it takes hard work to get it. Jack C proved it can be done on the McRoberts Creek project. It may be more work than any current volunteer will do but it is there.

We will never rely on enforcement on our trail systems. It doesn't work on our highways why would we ever expect it to work in the back country?

We are grateful for folks that come to the table willing to look for and work on solutions. It sounds like some from the ATV community will be at Mondays meeting. If it's only one that's ok because sometimes one is all it takes.
OK:

Re: the grant money -"Not accepted by applicant” (WSWCD) - source State Parks trails coordinator, Darcy Harris. Details of the grant are on the web.
WSWCD is in 'transition'. Apparently some kind of blow up. The manager did not even notify or show for a Stream Crossing Seminar (separate grant monies) at a reserved State building for the event. Calls were not returned, address defunct, and there was no office or staff. Now, the word is the Board is concentrating on community food distribution or such and reorienting. Not sure of the most immediate status.
Wondering if the money MSTC gave to WSWCD is lost in this shuffle, or also 'never claimed'?

RE: "We work on one problem at a time." (Sorry I lost you)
The problem with that approach, from my perspective, is we end up with short term solutions only - plain and simple; the real problem is that F&G and AWT cannot protect sensitive habitats like the Wasilla Cr.. That resource belongs to all of us. I'm not off base looking at the broader picture for solutions. Wasilla Cr. is just one problem area. This perhaps will need a legislative solution. Let's see if we can find ways to keep 'the $hit from hitting the fan' less often instead of applying bandaids.

Re: "oppose and close" An unappreciated attempt to keep me in an 'anti' box. I am pro fish, pro sustainability, pro responsible use.
I use my off road vehicles, and it was fear of losing that freedom, appreciation for resources and outdoors that has guided me. Elements of the off-road community are doing a fine job of getting areas closed down all by themselves, but fail to grasp or care, while leaving responsible users defending activities - often a loosing game, due to 'bad apples' and resultant damages.

Re: "The bridges that were built 15 years ago were in response to the same problems!"
Yep - very old issue - I'm 10K percent aware (one of the reasons I look above the 'one problem' area at a time for better than short term solutions, which is all that has surfaced to date. I know everyone has heard the old saw " Doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result is the definition of insanity." This goes well beyond just Wasilla Cr. to a larger problem with AK resource management, specifically F&G's limitations and DNR's 'thumb'.
A sixth bridge was put on hold when the big rigs rendered them a non-solution. The person that spearheaded that project from the beginning was, admittedly, near tears over the current conditions.

Are you saying you are pro no enforcement on the highways? Seems a weird argument.
I do agree that education and enforcement basically fail on the trails. One option is the loss of access. Fish habitat or mud bogging venue?? How about responsible management instead. Consider the Trooper's comment in the KTUU story re "running out of options". I don't think many folks will agree with kissing the fish habitat adios as one of those options.

There is less "money on trees" now and we need face that.
Then there is the plain fact that some of us are getting danged tired of money being spent accommodating a few abusers in order to protect resources, rather than funding essentials. You are good at getting money: good luck. The approx. $120K for the 'good at the time they were build bridges' is history. Maybe not repeating that adventure, along with failed educational and enforcement is worth discussion?
(I am not against continuing to educate or such, as fruitless as it seems! 'Let's go shoot some signs and smash some salmon fry!')

The ATV crowd, I am sure are concerned , as well. Multi braids around the extensive messes make all off-roaders look bad and create even more damages.

Addressing other posts, etc. :

Seasonal restrictions. anyone?? WTF, land managers? And the fools that tore it up while wet? (Fun, sure - do it where you are not smashing salmon fry and forcing multi modal trails into single use showcases.)
In other posts, users (I resemble that alligator) admit they can no longer WALK out there. Multi-use?? Hahahahaha. Fantasy concept as population and rig numbers explode. Irresponsible population outfitted with toys and no respect.

"Salmon stream crap" is not a phrase that will resonate in AK.

What do we do? 'Same old' I doubt will cut it. Rationalizing the damages is ridiculous.

My two cents:
If the State cannot manage our resources in ways commensurate with the values, we need to help by lobbying for management that will work better. That does not happen quickly and this Moose Range issue should have never gotten this far.

What can the off-road community do ourselves, now?
Get it across to abusers you know that their actions will not be tolerated - stop trying to accommodate and rationalize. You know some are right here on these pages. Opt for seasonal closures, separated uses, build respect. Spend more grant money if you must, but do it wisely and don't expect more than short term effects unless you jump in and alter the management schemes enabling damages. Sacrifice where reasonable and necessary. Practice wise use. Get after managers, lobby for budgets. Do not negate the infrastructure projects gained.

Push very hard now for a moratorium on Moose Range damaging uses, give the place a break, let it dry out and buy some time to work on solutions - gain respect in the process.

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Old 06-13-2016, 01:30 PM   #13
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Default Re: Sunvalley and MSTC

Glad to see the conversation. Daniel, thanx for the vote of confidence. Robert, I appreciate the update on the grant. It explains why WSWCD returned our 2500$ donation to the project.

I gave up on trying to change the world, i.e. I am not gonna spend the limited personal resources that I have trying to change how the government manages lands and waters of the State. I've been there and done that. I choose instead to focus my energy on things I have a reasonable chance of delivering. You may see them as band aids but they work. The bridge we built on Purinton Creek trail is a resounding success. As of yesterday there is not one set of tire tracks where someone attempted or even approached the swap. Grass is beginning to grow back and this years maintenance effort, I hope, will include planting bushes.

Values. While most would probably agree that protecting salmon streams is important, the larger picture of peoples 'values' is not something we are going to agree on. I've listened to the opposition to motorized use for too long. You might not like, or think my words don't fit you but all I can remember hearing is opposition to motorized uses and the solution being to close access. You use big words like moratorium rather than use simple words like close it.

I will continue as I have been doing. That is to work toward compromise and finding solutions that will allow people to continue to use the Sun Valley and greater Moose Range area.
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Old 06-13-2016, 02:52 PM   #14
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Default Re: Sunvalley and MSTC

Scott,

Yet, you have posted previously that you 'avoid the area when it is wet and won't make it easy for folks that are continuing to abuse it'. This seems a good time.

(I paraphrase, rather than search - and the above is not a criticism!)

How is that working out on the ground on the M. Range for the 'multi-modal' theme, or is it written off as part of the giving up on changing the world? (Understandable!)
I know you are not OK with what some peers are doing.
You have also posted you 'feel qualified to represent' other users of the area. 'Values' require a modicum of understanding in that case, even if they are not shared. And yet, some 'values' are even supposedly protected by laws, such as the subject fish habitat - folks Have agreed on same.

Not trying to be too personal, but am genuinely curious.

'Moratorium' is by definition 'temporary' and the existing problem is deserving of a pause while things are worked through. (Think Rex Trail.)
I do not consider it a 'big' word. The definition is apt. No conspiracy here.
Sheesh.

Re: "...all I remember hearing...." Can't help you in total on that one possibly including some selective hearing or BS from biased sources, but, admittedly:
I do believe not all uses are compatible with all habitats or alternate uses - and that incompatible uses can come at a price. (Oh, the shame of being aware of what the bulk of land managers have figured out.)
You may always ask me to clarify further on specific instances.

I know bridges that are not working as planned and some that are........ we are centering on the moose range bridges here, but do appreciate your example, since I alluded to others. Good work.

Thanks for the update on the returned $$$.Good to know.

Anyway, this portion of discussion is not helping Wasilla Cr.
Fry are in the creeks and one can't even walk on the f'n trail due to ...

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Old 06-13-2016, 11:15 PM   #15
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Default Re: Sunvalley and MSTC

Hope the meeting went well.

Fini :
I've expressed my thoughts, checked where hearts and minds are here, but will watch with interest to see if any productive action emerges that begins a timely healing process at the moose range, or all just remains business as usual.


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