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Old 02-08-2014, 11:44 AM   #1
chestypuller
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Default Jim Creek Fees



Jim Creek Fees?
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Old 02-08-2014, 03:06 PM   #2
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Default Re: Jim Creek Fees

moved from trip planning thread
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Old 02-08-2014, 08:11 PM   #3
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Default Re: Jim Creek Fees

I saw the sign leaving from the New Years Day ride. Didn't actually see what was on it due to it being dark.
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Old 02-08-2014, 08:49 PM   #4
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Default Re: Jim Creek Fees

F that.
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Old 02-08-2014, 08:51 PM   #5
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Default Re: Jim Creek Fees

I refuse to pay a fee to have fun
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Old 02-08-2014, 09:36 PM   #6
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Default Re: Jim Creek Fees

5$ day pass

40$ month pass

100$ year pass
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Old 02-08-2014, 10:21 PM   #7
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Default Re: Jim Creek Fees

I've said it before and I'll say it again I'm all for pay to play. People act like parking lots, restrooms, trash collection and other improvements just fall from the heavens

If we get the Boro assembly to follow thru there will be more improvements to that area.
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Old 02-09-2014, 04:10 AM   #8
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Default Re: Jim Creek Fees

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Originally Posted by snowbear View Post
If we get the Boro assembly to follow thru there will be more improvements to that area.


Thats a big if. I'm "ok" with a user fee ( not really I feel this is another tax ) but I want to see something for that fee, also the "improvements" .......well they usually come with a nice shiny new set of rules and regulations.

So I'm a bit worried and skeptical and can see my trips out there becoming less frequent.The dirt bags are not gonna pay,Our stop tearing **** up . Fees will only affect the responsible people
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Old 02-09-2014, 08:12 AM   #9
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Default Re: Jim Creek Fees

Signs been up for quite a while. I'm all for it. Of course there will be additional "rules" in the future. Responsible people will be glad to pay to use the area as it is something that should not be taken for granted and developed into a safer and more organized area. It is just a matter of time before there is more control such as this over the King's land. It is inevitable. That area is a great example of a multipurpose area that if done right can benefit all user groups.

Better get used to it, adjust what it is you are doing on the trails, adapt to change, or you are going to end up very bitter sitting on the couch while you sell off all your toys.

I'll pay 5 bucks without hesitation because that is a nice parking area, nice toilet, and I regularly see Law Enforcement patrolling which will keep the riff raff away.

If you're not willing to pay to play eyebrows may be raised in your general direction..What is it that you are going to do that isn't worth $5 ??
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Old 02-09-2014, 10:34 AM   #10
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Default Re: Jim Creek Fees

Like I said I'm "ok" with the user fee's if the money actually goes back into maintenance and keeping the areas open .

And, we don't get fawked by the other "user" groups who do not like the evil earth destroying OHV'ers
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Old 02-09-2014, 10:52 AM   #11
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Default Re: Jim Creek Fees

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Like I said I'm "ok" with the user fee's if the money actually goes back into maintenance and keeping the areas open .

And, we don't get fawked by the other "user" groups who do not like the evil earth destroying OHV'ers
These points are the key. It's up to the 4x4 "truck" community to be involved and make their presence known and their voices heard in a meaningful way.. which may take strong clubs, better organization, and a focused effort.


As a point of reference..the sign had been there well before the New Years Eve event..How many of you payed?? or even had ever read the sign prior. (i'm sure your driving by it was dually noted by the revenuers!! or will be in the near future.) Via camera maybe?

I find it somewhat disheartening that the 4x4 community represented on this forum seems to be so far removed from just this sort of trail awareness. It's Knik.....arguably the most used area around and this sign just materialized to everyone's amazement???? Somewhat shows the lack of paying attention on a broad level.
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Old 02-09-2014, 11:43 AM   #12
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Default Re: Jim Creek Fees

There are a lot of behind the scenes politics, bureaucracy and plain old schmoozing to get any improvements, as a member of MSTC, it has been an eye opener. I have only scratched the surface of all the hoops that have to be jumped through. It would try the patience of a BB stacker to deal with it, Scott has dealt with this for years and I have to say I respect him for sticking with it, it is, for the most part, a thankless job.
It is not a case of MSTC asking for and getting improvements, it is a case of the DNR, Federal government, State of Alaska, MatSu Borough and many others telling us what we can and can't do., how they want it done, and when.

Do I like fees?, an emphatic NO, but they are part and parcel of the "game" that has to be played in order to have and keep the trails we have. They seem to be a necessary evil for maintaining toilets, trash service, etc. that many take for granted.
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Old 02-09-2014, 02:48 PM   #13
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Default Re: Jim Creek Fees

Is the fee for area useage or parking? If the fee is for parking, the New Year's run participants were not in any violation.

I personally don't need, want, or use any of the bathroom or any other facilities. As far as fees covering extra patrolls by the Troopers, it seems the Troopers are there everytime, except when you really need them so.....
I don't like the idea of fees personally.
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Old 02-09-2014, 05:00 PM   #14
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Default Re: Jim Creek Fees

Click on the pic of the sign and zoom in. $5 per person Day Usage Fee.

There was already a discussion on here back in the summer of "volunteers" collecting for parking. I wouldn't be shocked to learn of "volunteers" enforcing the per person policy, and eventually Law Enforcement.

This is on the honor system and best case scenario is that the money collected goes back into the Public Use Area. Having $20 extra bucks cash will now have to be added to the gear list for enjoying this area with my family.
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Old 02-09-2014, 05:15 PM   #15
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Default Re: Jim Creek Fees

So for me to drive my truck out to the glacier it would cost me $25 to drive on the same trails that have been around for years. I have never spent more then 10 minutes in the parking lot. And only once have I ever parked in the lot. Almost always come out with a 55 gallon drum liner full of trash. I have yet to see the park service or troopers or blm out there picking up trash. So getting charged for a toilet I wont use is silly. First they enacted rules on use, now fees. Soon to follow will be more rules. And eventually motorized use will be further restricted. perhaps much like Eklutna where foot traffic, bikes and horses can be used any day of the week. But motorized use is only allowed Sunday, Monday and Tuesday in the summers. And is rarely open to Snow machines in the winter. Most of the trails arnt even open to OHV/ATV use. Only the mail lake trail is. And no motorbikes are allowed at all.

The formation of the KRPUA is just the master plan for the eventual pussification of the knik region.

I dont spend much time out there, but I think I will spend less and less time there as time goes on.
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Old 02-09-2014, 09:46 PM   #16
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Default Re: Jim Creek Fees

You want to know what's going on? You want to know why most of the drivel on here is incorrect? get off your a$$es and get involved.
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Old 02-10-2014, 03:39 AM   #17
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Default Re: Jim Creek Fees

Quote:
Originally Posted by snowbear View Post
If we get the Boro assembly to follow thru there will be more improvements to that area.

I don't like that a place thats been "free" for decades is now something that you have to pay for. I also don't really agree with any fee's for public land use we already pay enough in taxes. But I also get thats just the way it is.

I want to see some actual benefit for said money.


Scott, everyone that knows you appreciates all the behind the scenes stuff you do. Don't hesitate to call when you need some one to run a saw
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Old 02-10-2014, 08:27 AM   #18
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Default Re: Jim Creek Fees

FYI

I work for the borough in the Recreation Division, so start slinging arrows. Before you do though let me provide some information.

The fees are getting changed back to $5/per vehicle. We're not going to count your pulling truck, trailer, and three atvs as 5 vehicles. Just one $5/fee covers you. The annual will be $40/vehicle again, put it in your pulling rig or daily driver.

Why are fees getting charged? This is the hot button issues that tends to set most people off. The borough is charging and has charged for access to most of its sites for a very long time. Lazy Mountain, the West Butte etc., come to mind and now the fee pipe at Jim Creek has been installed. There are other sites(Goverment Peak, etc) going in when the ground thaws.

The money is used to offset the cost of maintaining the restroom. Without getting into an "I dont beleive it costs that much" arguement, the borough spends about $8K a year maintaining the restroom. That is made up of hourly wages (3x week summer), fuel, hourly rate of using the truck, toilet paper, cleaning supplies, vault pumping, repair of vandalism(someone set it on fire last summer) etc. I have the figures if anyone wants to see them.

Can the money go back into the site? Under the current borough structure, no. All revenues, for all facilities, sites etc.(jim creek, the pools, ice arena,) go back into the general fund and are allocated borough wide. Could this be changed? Yes, the borough has the ability to set up their revenues how they choose, but that's up to you as constituents to ask your Assembly person to do. Jim Creek could get set up as an enterprise fund, but it would be a hard sell.

What plans does the borough have for Jim Creek? There was a master plan done in 12 that is available online on the borough site. Its a "plan", its open to interpretation and change, but it does call for improvements to the site. I/we put in money(over $100K ) for improvements for FY15. This COULD include camping spots, pavilions, water well, parking lot improvements, or anything else that the people that use the area lobby for.(Thats YOU!)

That money can be taken out of the budget request at any time by the borough Admin/Assembly...sooooo if you want to see improvements, contact your assembly person, or the manager, or send me an email supporting Jim Creek improvements.

Will the borough "ruin" Jim Creek with a bunch of new restrictions? Doubtful, the borough only controls the 400 acres right around the parking area. Would there be some restrictions as to speed/reckless driving/litter, if the improvements take place, most likely.

I understand the concern that people have regarding JC and that something may be lost or taken away. Both my boss and I are not of the mind that anything is going to change to the detriment of the site or your time there. Although the Director is not an avid ATV'r, he has ridden out there and I am a member of the local off road community. Ive got over 30 years seat time in Jeeps and lifted trucks.

I appreciate being part of this forum and hope I can answer any questions you have.

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Old 02-10-2014, 02:16 PM   #19
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Default Re: Jim Creek Fees

Thanks for the input Hugh.
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Old 02-10-2014, 04:02 PM   #20
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Default Re: Jim Creek Fees

Hugh,

The Borough itself has a platted public easement leading to the trailhead for RST 17, which is a State recognized public right-of-way. I don't understand the legal rationale for imposing a fee on people passing through so long as they remain within the easement/ROW while they are on Borough property.

I recognize that the parking area itself is Borough land, and so a parking fee could be imposed for people who need to use that area during the day for parking a tow vehicle and trailer, or to park a camper--is that what the Borough is intending?

Also, considering that the Borough does not have a police force, what is the expected enforcement mechanism?

I do appreciate that the Borough has taken an active interest in providing some services in the parking area, and I agree with reasonable fees.
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Old 02-10-2014, 04:50 PM   #21
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Default Re: Jim Creek Fees

I p!ss in the woods, so why should I have to pay to maintain the restrooms ?
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Old 02-10-2014, 06:11 PM   #22
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Default Re: Jim Creek Fees

I'd pay $5 a day easy to know my tow vehicle wasn't getting messed with while I was out wheeling. I don't go to kink much but that's one of the reasons. And camping over night at baldy gets me a little worried. Sounds like this is an honor system though and maybe someone will drive in and make sure everyone paid then leave. Zero lake has a parking fee also. But im pretty sure it's only for campers and tow vehicles.
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Old 02-10-2014, 08:03 PM   #23
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Default Re: Jim Creek Fees

How does paying $5 to an unattended both make you feel more comfortable that your rig isn't going to get messed with ? I am just wondering cause I could put a $1000 in the box and still feel the same comfort level as before the box was there.
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Old 02-10-2014, 08:54 PM   #24
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Default Re: Jim Creek Fees

Very true I was saying if it got enough revenue and traffic maybe they would put someone there 8-5. Maybe even just on the weekends when the majority of people went.
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Old 02-10-2014, 08:55 PM   #25
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Default Re: Jim Creek Fees

I have no problem paying a fee to park my rig there. My question is how many other people will do the same thing? We usually buy a season pass for our rigs so it really is a non-issue though really.

The big thing to me is now that they are "managing" the area, they can shut it down without any real notice.

The idiots that are trashing the area still wont stop trashing the place.
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