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Old 07-19-2016, 04:55 PM   #1
frankenstien
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Default time for some upgrades and a re do

so, i build my 1974 gmc about 8 years ago now

heres the original build

http://www.alaska4x4network.com/show...highlight=1974

its been a while since ive done anything noteworthy to my truck since it has become my part time ride, i put some 35's on it, and since then the motor doestt feel as powerfull anymore even with the 4.56's, and theres a bunch of stuff id like to go back and re do, i did cut some corners and rushed some things, especially wiring, and some body stuff, the stuff bugs me enough where i dont drive it much.

top of the list is the motor, i have some ideas..the truck doesnt see offroad very much, even then its nothing extreme.

so my ideas as of now are

1. i have a 454 block that needs everything, thinking 496, maybe fuel injected holley sniper efi?

2. LS swap, probably 6.0 stroked to a 408? or maybe a super charger? not sure on forced induction on stock internals? and probably pair it up with a 4l80e

3.? no real idea? rebuild my current motor for forced induction?

the other issue that comes with a motor swap is the transmission, its only got 300 miles on it maybe since rebuild, and its built as tough as a th350 can get, but is it strong enough to take a 496? ls power? then adapting it to an LS?

or sell off the whole drivetrain and do the 496/th400 or maybe a 4L80 with a stand alone controller.

anyone have any ideas suggestions? im thinking somewhere in the 600ish hp? and tons of torque.

2nd is wiring, what i have is a birds nest of tree vines that needs to be organized

3rd is body, going to strip off some trim, sand some stuff down, fix some rips in the fender skins etc, and i have a spray gun now, id like to try(nothing special) but the truck is spray painted now, so get that fixed up, time frame is a year, maybe 2 if needed.
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2005 GMC 2500HD Duramax Diesel- 452hp/962tq on P3's dyno

2015 Ford Expedition EL - Wife's rig
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Old 07-19-2016, 07:31 PM   #2
wasillashack
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Default Re: time for some upgrades and a re do

Lots to consider, we have owned three 454 Duallies , an '87 carbureted with TH400, a '91 and '92 TBI 4L80E's, and our current '01 CCLB with 496 (8.1) /Allison. The'01 is the best of the bunch, better mileage, throttle response and torque. We had a complete Banks exhaust including headers on the '91, huge difference. I believe BBC's need headers the most. If sequential EFI is available, it would be the way to go. TBI EFI is a compromise.

L series engines are a newer WAY more efficient design, my experience is limited to the LQ9 6.0 in our 03 Escalade, all around more efficient engine with a big return for any performance enhancers, original pistons should be replaced with forged, IMHO, Lighter, better heads and bottom end.

Another alternative would be a 383/388 stroker SBC, this has been done so much it is a bolt together deal other than notching the block, or buy a built crate motor. I would use a long rod combination in it.

Regearing to 4:88. 5:13 or 5:38 could restore some snap, and may be worth considering unless your engine is tired anyway.

The old axiom holds true, "There is no substitute for cubic inches" It is easier to get the same power/torque out of a larger displacement engine than it is a small one, which results in less wear on the engine, usually.If you have the torque, there is no need to spool these engines past 5-6,000 RPM's

Budget and equipment available may figure in to your choices also. YMMV, and everyone has their own ideas about off road engines, Good Luck!
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Last edited by wasillashack; 07-19-2016 at 07:39 PM.
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Old 07-19-2016, 09:41 PM   #3
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Default Re: time for some upgrades and a re do

Lots to consider, we have owned three 454 Duallies , an '87 carbureted with TH400, a '91 and '92 TBI 4L80E's, and our current '01 CCLB with 496 (8.1) /Allison. The'01 is the best of the bunch, better mileage, throttle response and torque. We had a complete Banks exhaust including headers on the '91, huge difference. I believe BBC's need headers the most. If sequential EFI is available, it would be the way to go. TBI EFI is a compromise.

L series engines are a newer WAY more efficient design, my experience is limited to the LQ9 6.0 in our 03 Escalade, all around more efficient engine with a big return for any performance enhancers, original pistons should be replaced with forged, IMHO, Lighter, better heads and bottom end.

Another alternative would be a 383/388 stroker SBC, this has been done so much it is a bolt together deal other than notching the block, or buy a built crate motor. I would use a long rod combination in it. Edit: Read your build thread, is your 383 a long rod or short rod engine? What cam? The 383 I built for my Chevelle was a short rod engine, due to limited availability of long rod pistons (1985) not so now. I used a Comp Cams 268H hydraulic flat tappet cam in my engine for great bottom end. Today I would use a long rod, with hydraulic roller cam 274 ? and roller rockers . Hard to build a 600 HP SBC that runs on pump gas

The old axiom holds true, "There is no substitute for cubic inches" It is easier to get the same power/torque out of a larger displacement engine than it is a small one, which results in less wear on the engine, usually.If you have the torque, there is no need to spool these engines past 5-6,000 RPM's

Budget and equipment available may figure in to your choices also. YMMV, and everyone has their own ideas about off road engines, Good Luck!
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Old 07-20-2016, 02:47 AM   #4
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Default Re: time for some upgrades and a re do

The current engine is healthy, it has maybe 20k on it, some of it is probably in my head as far as power goes, ive gotten to driving my tuned duramax.

The current motor is a 10.6 ish:1 383 with dart heads, 750 qft double pumper, balanced etc, retrofit roller cam, motor doesnt really open up till about 2500.

How does the 8.1 do woth oil consumption? When i worked at the gm dealer around 06, almost all of them ate oil.

I am not too familar with fuel injection retro fit and tuning wise, but it would probably be benificial to get with the times. We have a Lq4 in thr wifes denali, been a good motor so far. if i do an ls swap it would begetting a forged stroker kit i think.

I have a good oldrr 2 pc rear msin 454 block out back, it got a little rusty but it should still be good.

Thrn comes transmission, TCI says it should holf about 800hp....in a 3000lb car i think thats super optimistic for my application, but a 4l80e would probably be thr bedt all around, advance adapters makes a kit to adapt it to a 205

I like the idea of a big block, but a built f/i ls motor will be more desireable, i think? But the ls is alot more work.
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2015 Ford Expedition EL - Wife's rig
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Old 07-20-2016, 10:55 AM   #5
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Default Re: time for some upgrades and a re do

Do you know if your stroker uses 350 (long) or 400 (short) rods? Do you find yourself wanting more bottom end occasionally? or just drop a gear or two? My old odd fire Dauntless V6 will pull down to 200 RPM and still run in gear. A 55 pound flywheel on it is a crutch for more low end torque.

Our 8.1 will use about a quart between oil changes-3,000 miles it has 154K on the clock now. I've heard of some 8.1's that use 3-4 quarts between changes. I suspect rings, valve guides and seals for this. Head bolt placement also. That is one advantage of the L series engines, head bolt placement maintains round cylinders better. Wifes' Escalade at 100K didn't use oil, even with a cracked skirt on one piston. Replacement engine from extended warranty company had parts of a piston in the pan, second replacement was OK. Short skirts on L engines are prone to failure, but, they rev like a 2 cycle due to reduced reciprocating weight.

EFI systems are advancing by leaps and bounds, Atomic, FAST and others are self learning and tune themselves as you drive them. I did a lot of research on EFI for my odd fire V6, the only system that supports odd fire is MegaSquirt, (low initial cost, steep learning curve, infinitely tunable via laptop, great support) GM (cheap hardware, tunable via TunerPro, and others, lots of aftermarket support, somewhat limited) I like Holley carbs, BUT, EFI is the future, more efficient, unaffected by off camber situations and altitude more tunable and reliable, than carbs.

The rusty 454 should be OK as long as the bearing and lifter bores aren't pitted excessively, if they are it is still usable, but more expensive to repair.

TH350/400 are OK, and have well established aftermarket support. I expect your truck weighs at least 4.000 lbs, which really affects life span of the trans, 4wd adds to the stress. Rule of thumb is TH350-SBC, TH400/475 BBC. My research indicates the Class 8 or unlimited off road trucks are using 4L60/4l80 transmissions, probably due to the trans can e fine tuned for shift points and other things can be fine tuned by the
trans control module. Technology it's a beautiful thing-when it works. Trade offs are the bigger the trans, the heavier it is and more HP is required to drive it. I've read a TH 400/475 takes about 60-75 HP. As I have said before I am not an auto trans expert.

A BBC will always have more HP and torque than a similar SBC. L series engines incorporate newer technology and better architecture than BBC/SBC's, so you are starting with a design advantage from the get. Better bore concentricity, better bearing stability, bigger cam base circle for more lift capability, etc. Better all around than any previous BBC/SBC engine. Dyno tests for L engines show the torque/HP curves to be flatter with less cam timing, the greater the area "under the curve", the better.

Everyone has their own ideas about engine/rig builds. HP is great, but torque is what moves things. Big HP numbers in any engine is a compromise in torque. You are the only one who can make the final choice after factoring in use, parts availability, and budget. YMMV. Good Luck!
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Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him had better take a closer look at the American Indian.
~ Henry Ford

We are told not to judge Muslims based on the actions of a few.

I suggest we give the millions of responsible Americans gun owners that same courtesy.

Last edited by wasillashack; 07-20-2016 at 11:04 AM.
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Old 07-20-2016, 01:15 PM   #6
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Default Re: time for some upgrades and a re do

my motor has the shorter 5.7'' rods.

im still looking at aftermarket efi systems, if i go with one id like self learning if affordable enough.

thats not bad on the 8.1, we had a few that had to track oil vs miles and fuel used, first step was intake manifold bolts IIRC, our 6.0 has about 85k on it and i have ams oil in it and it hasnt used any in the last 5k miles.

my truck weighs in at a hefty 6200lbs last time i weighed it on the scales at brown hills quarry, unloaded.

the 454 block was boiled and magged before being bagged, the bag ripped during the winter under the snow and rusted up, it is sitting on a pallet.

i know about torque , i really like my diesel and have considered a duramax swap, and i think its just too much money, as neat as it would be

i know its my decision in the end, i just keep jumping from idea to idea. step one is getting the motor/trans/t case sold and clean the engine bay up and then see whats out there and available.

i think im closer to fuel injected big block with a th400/4l80e or a ls swap with a 4l80e
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2005 GMC 2500HD Duramax Diesel- 452hp/962tq on P3's dyno

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Old 07-25-2016, 07:13 PM   #7
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Default Re: time for some upgrades and a re do

so after researching, crunching numbers etc, im going to go with an ls swap. been looking at 421 stroker kits, 4.030x4.125, looking for a donor vehicle as well as going to try to sell my current power train, as theres not much i can use of it
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2015 Ford Expedition EL - Wife's rig
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Old 07-26-2016, 06:57 AM   #8
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Default Re: time for some upgrades and a re do

aluminum or iron block?
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Old 07-26-2016, 10:35 AM   #9
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Default Re: time for some upgrades and a re do

Quote:
Originally Posted by billythedeadboy View Post
aluminum or iron block?
most likely iron, due to availability, and forced inductions isnt out of the question, and fromw hat im reading they seem to handle it better. and the iron blocks can accept a 4.125'' crank with wiseco pistons
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2005 GMC 2500HD Duramax Diesel- 452hp/962tq on P3's dyno

2015 Ford Expedition EL - Wife's rig
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Old 08-07-2016, 09:24 PM   #10
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Default Re: time for some upgrades and a re do

guess you could call it progress? went downt o dyno my truck and pick up a motor, ended up with 2 motors. got a 2001 5.3 LM7 iron block with 862 aluminum heads, picked up a basket case 6.0, timing chain broke, had multiple valve to piston strikes, the pic is the worst of them, but everything seems to be intact, i just need a good block to build off of, came with the heads, drive by wire intake and some other odds n ends.

need to tear the 6.0 down and get the block to the machine shop, get the 5.3 intake and exhaust manifolds off and give it a good inspection with the ol bore scope and make sure it looks like it will run

got my diesel on the P3 dyno there in wasilla, put down a nice 942 ft-lbs of torque, not too bad for some bolt ons, tuning and a trans
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450+HP 383

2005 GMC 2500HD Duramax Diesel- 452hp/962tq on P3's dyno

2015 Ford Expedition EL - Wife's rig
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Old 12-17-2017, 06:01 PM   #11
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Default Re: time for some upgrades and a re do

well coming back to this, I have since sold my ls engines, bought a parts truck out of delta, a very sad one might i add. but it does have a steel flat bed, 454/th400/205 which will replace my 383/th350/205, i will probably build the 454 into a 496. id really like to make a torque monster out of it
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2015 Ford Expedition EL - Wife's rig
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Old 12-21-2017, 03:50 PM   #12
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Default Re: time for some upgrades and a re do

I was really hoping to see an LS going into this. Very nice motors and make good power. The th350 would do good on one too. I have a th400 behind mine. Are you going with efi on it?
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Old 12-24-2017, 10:00 AM   #13
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Default Re: time for some upgrades and a re do

I still go back and fourth now and again, I really want lots of torque, but if I found a good enough deal on an LS I might go that direction still. I do like the idea of a boosted LS in it, its just a lot of work. Worst case, my 66 Caprice is getting a TT LS for sure

Haven't done anything with the big block yet but disassemble. Been busy doing some metal work on the flat bed, I think a blind guy with 1 hand and 2 fingers welded it up.

My plan is to use on of the FI tech throttle body kits that have the self learning, keep it simple, the multiple ports are pretty pricey.
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2015 Ford Expedition EL - Wife's rig
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Old 12-26-2017, 07:28 PM   #14
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Default Re: time for some upgrades and a re do

Anyone use a body lift on the 73-87 Chevy trucks? Was thinking about doing a 2" on the cab and front clip to pick up everything to make more room for the big block
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2005 GMC 2500HD Duramax Diesel- 452hp/962tq on P3's dyno

2015 Ford Expedition EL - Wife's rig
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Old 12-30-2017, 04:40 PM   #15
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Default Re: time for some upgrades and a re do

well if your still going back and forth Id vote LS swap both, start with what one you dont mind if its a little messy. That way the next one goes smooth. You'll need to buy certain tools and probably software no matter what if your going to ever swap an LS. Probably more cost effective to run the same LS in all, then youll have spare parts and the right tools and get use to working in them.
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Old 12-31-2017, 02:41 PM   #16
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Default Re: time for some upgrades and a re do

yeah the truck doesnt need to be perfect, the one in the caprice i want to look nice, and be as close to perfect as i can get, thinking of the holley terminator? or maybe it was dominator efi for the car, id like to have more tuning options for the car, the truck could have a stock ecm and modified harness, and i have efi live to tune it

itd probably be cheaper to use a turbo 6.0 ls in the truck than a big block, but i really want some low end torque
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2005 GMC 2500HD Duramax Diesel- 452hp/962tq on P3's dyno

2015 Ford Expedition EL - Wife's rig

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Old 04-11-2018, 02:14 PM   #17
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Default Re: time for some upgrades and a re do

Well back at it, sold the 454, looking at picking up a LC9 5.3
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Old 04-12-2018, 08:51 PM   #18
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Default Re: time for some upgrades and a re do

L series engines are more efficient than any previous production Chevy v8. I have little experience with them except for the wife's 03 Escalade, the original engine had a piston failure and the replacement engine did as well, the third is still running in the car. We have owned 3 duallies with 454's, an '87, a '91 and '92 our current '01 has the 8.1 (496) It is head and shoulders above the carbureted and TBI 454's, no economy king, and likes oil too, like many big blocks. You pay your money and take your pick. No idea on price differences between the two, that could be a deciding factor. Good luck!
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Old 04-14-2018, 09:03 PM   #19
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Default Re: time for some upgrades and a re do

I have only ran one ls in the wifes denali, 06, no issues with it, everyone in my family has one on one flavor or another, biggest issue ive had to deal with us broken exhaust manifold bolts, everyone of them has had one.

I've heard the 8.1's do well, I worked at the chevy dealership here, like 05-07 ish? We replaced a few 8.1's for exessive oil consumption. There was a couple inbetween steps to help with it.

As for me, I wanted a big block, but to build it from the ground up, is a lot of money to build it the way I'd like, the LS series engines can take a real beating in stock form, even more with a couple odds and ends.

I ended up picking up the LC9 5.3, which is all aluminum, as well as a 6L80E 6 speed auto. Which should fit my NP205 T case pretty easy, havent ever done a swap like this, so here we go, diving in head first, have along ways before its up and running but hopefully I'll get there
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Old 04-15-2018, 10:12 PM   #20
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Default Re: time for some upgrades and a re do

Anyone here happen to adapt a 6L80e to a gm np205?

Or have measurements on the length of inputs? Im 90% sure I have the long input, but it doesnt really match the interwebs
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