Alaska 4x4 Network

Go Back   Alaska 4x4 Network > Alaska 4x4 Network Forums > Special Interest > Grant-o-vations

Grant-o-vations Building something crazy? Trying something totally out of the box? Post it here. Lets see what all those wacky minds are doing out there. These posts should be somewhat technical in nature, but dont necessarily have to be 4x4 related.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-21-2007, 05:28 AM   #26
00TJ
Hermann The German
 
00TJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Anchorage
Posts: 8,001
00TJ is on a distinguished road
Default Re: 6x6 ideas and discussion

Here is one I saw at one of the clean ups at Knik
Attached Images
 
__________________
Set the example in everything you do in your sport."Post Responsibly" "Ride Responsibly" "Camp Responsibly" "Drink Responsibly". Behave like EVERYONE in the world is watching and evaluating your actions. Have fun, yes. But realize we are threatened like never before. I've never seen so many closures and potential closures on the horizon. Please take heed and act now

By Del Albright,
00TJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2007, 06:38 AM   #27
Pt_Ranger_V8
Registered Member
 
Pt_Ranger_V8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: I'm in ur g'rage, wrenchin' ur toolz
Posts: 4,012
Pt_Ranger_V8 is on a distinguished road
Default Re: 6x6 ideas and discussion

I've seen that rig around Wasilla on occasion as well It's TALL!

but I think it would look better behind a Ford body
__________________
86 Ford that needs some junk let's wheel!
Resistance Is Useless! (if <1 ohm)
"It is the responsibility of the patriot to protect his country from its government."

--Thomas Paine
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadCo View Post
That's like mending a broken leg on someone that has been decapitated....
Pt_Ranger_V8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2007, 11:27 PM   #28
85toyflatbed
Registered Member
 
85toyflatbed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,607
85toyflatbed is on a distinguished road
Default Re: 6x6 ideas and discussion

that is my nabors rig he eats trannys about every 4 months it has been broke in 2 right behind the cab he runs singls all the way around it. he also has a f 800 4x4 ford
85toyflatbed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2013, 05:34 PM   #29
Niko
Full Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Eagle River
Posts: 2,980
Niko is on a distinguished road
Default Re: 6x6 ideas and discussion

I want to bring this back to the top. I've been wanting to build a Samurai for a couple years now, and I always thought a 6x6 would be great for our boggy terrain. I've been searching forums the last few weeks and information is pretty scarce.

I checked out some M151 diffs today. I can get a complete front end with a-arms and steering, and two rear diffs with a-arms, plus all the drive shafts. The setup is smaller/lighter than I thought it would be which is a plus. And since all the diff and axle parts are the same, you'd only have to carry one spare. I read on Pirate that you can modify Samurai lockers to fit the M151 diffs. An ARB up front and mini spools or ARB's (depending on budget) in the rear.

Anyway, I want to make this happen over the winter. To keep it relatively inexpensive and simple (as possible) here's what I'm thinking.

- Pick up a running tin top Samurai as planned.
- Build a new box frame out of 2x4x1/8 and brace it well. The mounting for all the 3 diffs and the a-arms are identical so once one is figured out the other two should be easy.
- Use the Samurai frame to transfer measurements to build new engine, transmission, t-case, and body mounts.
- Reuse the Samurai motor, transmission, and t-case(6.5:1 gears) to keep it lightweight and simple, plus I'm familiar with it.
- Sidekick power steering
- Either build a small flatbed behind the tin top, or find a second tin top and graph two of them together to cover the extended frame length.
- Use the 15 gallon Petroworks gas tank to increase range.
- 35x19x15 agricultural tires on 15x16 steel wheels

Tires would be the most expensive part, the rest is just time. I can get the the M151 setups for less than $500 (for all three), figure $500-$1,500 for a Samurai, $1,000 worth of steel for the frame, $1,000 for the 6.5:1 t-case gearset and new cradle/mount, and then misc. costs. I'm sure the diffs and spindles probably need all new bearings and seals.

My ONLY concern at this point, is whether or not the M151 diffs, u-joints, and axles could handle the 35x19x15 ags, they are 12 ply and 100 lbs ea (I'm still looking for large tires that aren't 12 ply). I want to run tires with a large footprint though, a baby rolligon so to speak.


Thoughts? Suggestions? Better ideas?
__________________
The Sled Garage because stock sucks
Winnin Ugly Racing It's not cheating if you don't get caught

Last edited by Niko; 10-04-2013 at 05:38 PM.
Niko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2013, 06:13 PM   #30
Niko
Full Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Eagle River
Posts: 2,980
Niko is on a distinguished road
Default Re: 6x6 ideas and discussion

A post I found on Pirate4x4 with some good pictures.
Quote:
If you are looking for a budget friendly independent setup that would be easy to retrofit to another vehicle; take a look at M151 MUTT front suspension assemblies. They are one crossmember "unit" that bolts on with 4 bolts and includes upper and lower A-arms, shocks, bump stops, and the differential. The diffs are open with a 4.86 ratio, but are easily welded, and they have a thru-pinion, so they can be used front or rear. The axle shafts are relatively strong and use 1310 u-joints, so parts are cheap and easily upgradeable. The differentials are very narrow (about 12" from u-joint to u-joint) which leaves room for longer "half shafts", and combined with the high misalignment of the 1310 u-joints, allows for quite a bit of travel. With modified shock mounts, and different springs, 12"-14" of suspension travel could be easily attained.

I know Cherokees are pretty light and M151 suspension/drivetrain would probably hold up well under one with about 31" tires, but it would be better suited to something really small like a Samurai or a tube chassis. There are many companies selling affordable surplus military parts for M151's so parts availability is no issue. I paid $90 shipped for a good take-off differential, and I'm sure a couple of good used front suspension assemblies could be had for just a few hundred dollars. One drawback is the drum brakes, but at least 2 companies are making disc conversions, and since the wheel pattern is 5 on 5.5" a custom disc setup wouldn't be too hard.

I wheeled the **** out of my M151 with the original suspension and it held up increadibly well, even with f/r welded diffs, but that was with little 7.00x16 (30") non-directional military tires. I then mounted another front suspension assembly w/fixed steering to the rear, bolted on 36" Hummer tires, and took it to Grey Rock for some tough trails. Taking into account the fact that all the bushings, ball-joints, and tie rods were 40 yrs old and really sloppy, it did fairly well. I did end up breaking a lot of parts, but I believe the limiting factor to be the wheel bearings. The wheels I used had much less backspacing than the originals, therefore putting much more stress on the wheel bearings, so using wheels with deep backspacing would help a lot.

Stock, except for the snorkle.
Quote:
In these pics you can see how easy it is to mount one of these suspension assemblies (and it's a unibody). I did this in one weekend (so don't flame).


Quote:
Here you can see how the front has less of an angle on the a-arms/less ground clearance than the rear. This is only because one of the proper front springs I had was broken, so I used softer rear springs.
__________________
The Sled Garage because stock sucks
Winnin Ugly Racing It's not cheating if you don't get caught
Niko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2013, 09:13 PM   #31
Niko
Full Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Eagle River
Posts: 2,980
Niko is on a distinguished road
Default Re: 6x6 ideas and discussion

Here's a few images of the 35x19.00-16.1



__________________
The Sled Garage because stock sucks
Winnin Ugly Racing It's not cheating if you don't get caught
Niko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2013, 09:41 PM   #32
Rdrash
Registered Member
 
Rdrash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: wasilly
Posts: 3,215
Rdrash is on a distinguished road
Default Re: 6x6 ideas and discussion

Use M561 diffs and A arms they are already 6x6 I know a jeep ran them on top truck a while back and they handle 44 inch boggers. I'm pretty sure the jeep was from British Columbia and may have been in the PNW offroad club
__________________
`Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president.
Theodore Roosevelt (1858 - 1919)

To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, right or wrong - is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.
Theodore Roosevelt (1858 - 1919)

“A liberal is a person whose interests aren't at stake at the moment”
Rdrash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2013, 01:54 PM   #33
wasillashack
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Wasilla
Posts: 4,443
wasillashack has disabled reputation
Default Re: 6x6 ideas and discussion

In Anchorage, there is a gentleman named Fred Scharper. He lives directly south of Alaska Tent and Tarp on 54th, has a shop beside his house. He will have or know where to get, anything for a Mutt. I also know of a Mutt that was for sale in Wasilla.
wasillashack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2013, 05:36 PM   #34
bigtex
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Ft. Richardson
Posts: 708
bigtex is on a distinguished road
Default Re: 6x6 ideas and discussion

Eventually Im going to do a 6x6 conversion on my truck. The red dodge is exactly what Im after.
__________________
cowboy up
"life's alot tougher when your stupid" - John Wayne
81 toyota w/ whats left of a service box and 38" swampers
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/toyot...lack-81-a.html
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/ford/...bler-tech.html
bigtex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2013, 08:02 PM   #35
murphyslaw
Registered Member
 
murphyslaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: on the edge of failure
Posts: 7,930
murphyslaw is on a distinguished road
Default Re: 6x6 ideas and discussion

I believe the tandem axle conversion is called a T rex dodge.
__________________
Μολὼν λαβέ will not be just a slogan very long. We're going to have to fight for our freedoms.

We carry guns here, act accordingly.
when in doubt, part it out.

murphyslaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2013, 09:09 PM   #36
89' BURBAN
Registered Member
 
89' BURBAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Wasilla
Posts: 515
89' BURBAN is on a distinguished road
Default Re: 6x6 ideas and discussion

On the topic of the M151 axles. Just found this pic of a buggy a guy I used to work with built. Homebuilt frame, cab, etc. M151 axles, VW drivetrain. If I remember right he was running 31's. It was an impressive rig. Even easy to change ball joints in the field (Which is what we finished doing right before the pic lol)
__________________
"Political correctness is tyranny with manners"
89' BURBAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2013, 11:30 PM   #37
Niko
Full Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Eagle River
Posts: 2,980
Niko is on a distinguished road
Default Re: 6x6 ideas and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rdrash View Post
Use M561 diffs and A arms they are already 6x6 I know a jeep ran them on top truck a while back and they handle 44 inch boggers. I'm pretty sure the jeep was from British Columbia and may have been in the PNW offroad club
I'm trying to keep it small and light, the 561 parts are heavy. I want the completed weight to be well under 3000 lbs. Tires will probably end up being the 34x12 ags because of cost and weight. Shouldn't have to worry too much about breakage with the 55hp 1.3 Sami motor.
__________________
The Sled Garage because stock sucks
Winnin Ugly Racing It's not cheating if you don't get caught
Niko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2013, 07:51 AM   #38
Rdrash
Registered Member
 
Rdrash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: wasilly
Posts: 3,215
Rdrash is on a distinguished road
Default Re: 6x6 ideas and discussion

Gotcha, if you were able to come in at 2000 unloaded and dry it would open a whole lot more trails to your machine.

That might be a stretch but its good to know
__________________
`Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president.
Theodore Roosevelt (1858 - 1919)

To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, right or wrong - is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.
Theodore Roosevelt (1858 - 1919)

“A liberal is a person whose interests aren't at stake at the moment”
Rdrash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2013, 02:46 PM   #39
deepmud
Full Member
 
deepmud's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Wasilla
Posts: 3,368
deepmud is on a distinguished road
Default Re: 6x6 ideas and discussion

what about a FWD car for a power train? very light and more power than the stock samurai - or even a 1.6 FI Sidekick is so much more torqure and runability...but a sideways FWD, maybe auto so it will shift up to speed easy. The diff ends up being your low range, most little cars run 4:1 or lower in their diff....
__________________
keep an eye out for miracles - you'll find 'em!
deepmud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2013, 05:55 PM   #40
Niko
Full Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Eagle River
Posts: 2,980
Niko is on a distinguished road
Default Re: 6x6 ideas and discussion

The M151 engine/transmission/t-case setup is small and simple. I can get a few them for practically nothing. 65 HP, 128 FT/LBS. Engine/trans/t-case/accessories weighs 528 lbs. It has a four speed synchromesh manual transmission and t-case is used only to engage/disengage the front axle. Because there's no high/low range, the M151 only has two gearshifts instead of the normal three. Plus the parking brake is right on the t-case for simplicity.

All joking aside, it was pretty cool rummaging through old Mutt parts.

__________________
The Sled Garage because stock sucks
Winnin Ugly Racing It's not cheating if you don't get caught

Last edited by Niko; 10-07-2013 at 05:58 PM.
Niko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2013, 08:10 PM   #41
wasillashack
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Wasilla
Posts: 4,443
wasillashack has disabled reputation
Default Re: 6x6 ideas and discussion

Chevy did an engineering excercise in the 80's with a twin engine Citation, twin HO 2.8 V6s. One in its'normal location, one in the trunk.

Recently there was a company in Arizona or Nevada building tube frame buggies that used a transverse front engine and trans mounted sideways in the chassis, each axle drove the front and rear axle differential. Interesting concept, and light, single seater, but that could be changed, Two Dana 44's. a late model transverse engine like a Supercharged Buick V6, posibilities......
wasillashack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2013, 08:43 PM   #42
turk
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 564
turk is on a distinguished road
Default Re: 6x6 ideas and discussion

I have been planning a four wheel buggy and turning a tdi 1.9 sideways to dive two IFS differentials to get fourwheel steering, drive, and independent suspension.
__________________
a miller passport plus, and a dynasty 200
2 yamaha big bears, and a six door pickup
turk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2013, 10:32 AM   #43
deepmud
Full Member
 
deepmud's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Wasilla
Posts: 3,368
deepmud is on a distinguished road
Default Re: 6x6 ideas and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Niko View Post
The M151 engine/transmission/t-case setup is small and simple. I can get a few them for practically nothing. 65 HP, 128 FT/LBS. Engine/trans/t-case/accessories weighs 528 lbs. It has a four speed synchromesh manual transmission and t-case is used only to engage/disengage the front axle. Because there's no high/low range, the M151 only has two gearshifts instead of the normal three. Plus the parking brake is right on the t-case for simplicity.

All joking aside, it was pretty cool rummaging through old Mutt parts.

I used have one - the motor is pretty much a tractor engine - pulls from just a few hundred RPM, like a diesel almost.


Not a lightweight tho'. 24 volt, 100 amp Generator, not an alternator, huge starter. I think the ignition is fully water proofed too. I like the motor but your total weight will be higher by a couple hundred pounds if you use it - "I think"
__________________
keep an eye out for miracles - you'll find 'em!
deepmud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2013, 02:57 PM   #44
Niko
Full Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Eagle River
Posts: 2,980
Niko is on a distinguished road
Default Re: 6x6 ideas and discussion

It would be heavier. The Sami motor wet is only around 128 lbs, plus the tranny and t-case.
__________________
The Sled Garage because stock sucks
Winnin Ugly Racing It's not cheating if you don't get caught
Niko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2013, 03:39 PM   #45
joe231
Registered Member
 
joe231's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Palmer
Posts: 2,185
joe231 is on a distinguished road
Default Re: 6x6 ideas and discussion

How much are those 35x19.00-16.1's?
__________________
There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness"

Chevy Only
joe231 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2013, 03:48 PM   #46
Niko
Full Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Eagle River
Posts: 2,980
Niko is on a distinguished road
Default Re: 6x6 ideas and discussion

Cheapest I could find them online was $700ish ea. new. They aren't cheap which is why I'll probably end up with the 34x12 ags which are only $200 ea. Maybe Diversified can get them for less.
__________________
The Sled Garage because stock sucks
Winnin Ugly Racing It's not cheating if you don't get caught
Niko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2013, 07:13 PM   #47
Niko
Full Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Eagle River
Posts: 2,980
Niko is on a distinguished road
Default Re: 6x6 ideas and discussion

I PM'd the owner of the converted Jeep I posted to get some more information regarding his experience wheeling it. Figured I'd share it with you guys.

Here was my first PM to him and his response back

Quote:
Originally Posted by muttman
Quote:
Originally Posted by sledgarage
Hey, I found a few of your posts while searching for information on M151 axles. I'm going to build a lightweight 6x6 Samurai and I want to use M151 axles. Mostly because of the ease of mounting and I can get a complete front and two rears with the suspensions and steering for $500.

There is very little information on the web in regards to the M151's axle strength and what it will hold up to.

I was looking thru your Mutt build thread and you have some wheeling experience with them.

In your opinion, do you think M151 axles would hold up to 34x12 ag tires? They weigh 50 lbs ea. so they aren't a real heavy tire and the Samurai motor is only 55 HP so there's not a lot of power to brake parts. I'm planning on welding both rear differentials. The terrain in Alaska is mostly mud and bog, not much in the way of rocks.

Here's a pic of the tire I'd like to run.


Thanks for any help.

Sounds like a badass project.

The mutt axles have very tough guts, the shafts are strong and use 1350 u-joints, and I ran the front and rear diffs welded with no problems, but I'm afraid the mutt axles won't hold up to those tires. Believe it or not the major weak link turned out to be the wheel bearings. I literally destroyed all 8 wheel bearings in 4 hrs wheeling..... like rollers spitting out on the ground destroyed, and that was with 36x12.5 Goodyear RTII's that only measure 33.5" tall. However, I beat the crap out of it for a long time with welded diffs and the original skinny military tires with no problems.

I think you will be fine with a tire that tall, but the width is what will be hard on wheel bearings. If you build it extremely light, and most importantly get wheels with very deep backspacing to keep the load centered on the bearings, you might be alright. Also the load will be spread out over another axle if you go 6x6.

There is one other major thing to consider. For performance and ease of mounting I would try to find 3 front suspension units. I ran a front suspension on the rear of the mutt and the upper/lower A-arms performed much better than the rear swingarm suspenison type. The front and rear units use the same differentials, axleshafts, and bearings. If you use rear suspension units the tires will change camber wildly as the suspension cycles which will be even harder on wheel bearings. The front suspension unbolts from the frame with 4 bolts, and is a completely self contained unit with springs, shocks, steering.... basically everything. Also the steering is very easy to lock for use as a rear unit.

Good luck and keep me updated or start a build thread.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Second PM and response from him

Quote:
Originally Posted by muttman
Wow, hanks for the great info! I was already planning on running as deep of backspacing as possible to not only help wheel bearing life, but to keep it narrow.

I can get all front assemblies no problem, they are only $100 more each.

Had the wheel bearing been replaced prior to breaking them on your trip? Is it possible they were in poor condition to start with? I wonder if upgrading to high quality bearing would help?

I do plan on keeping it as light as possible, trying for 2,600-2,800 lbs finished weight. Do you have any kind of guess as to what a complete front assembly weighs?

Caleb
The wheel bearings were old, maybe even original, but I figured since all of them broke it wasn't just coincidence. Get some American made bearings and some high quality grease, and set them up a little tight, and they might hold up.

The front axle assemblies are light, I could load one in the bed of a pickup by myself. Probably less than 150 lbs without wheels/tires. The entire crossmember and coil bucket are made of stamped sheet metal, like 20GA.[/QUOTE]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Cliff notes

- Need 3 complete M151 front ends, I will lock the steering on the rear two
- Run as deep of backspacing as possible, I'll use 15x8 steelies to keep cost down unless I can find cheap 15x8 aluminum wheels for the weight benefit
- replace all wheel bearings with the best ones available from Alaska Bearing
- the complete M151 assemblies are lighter than I was thinking which is great, shouldn't add too much weight to do the conversion
__________________
The Sled Garage because stock sucks
Winnin Ugly Racing It's not cheating if you don't get caught
Niko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2013, 07:36 PM   #48
Rdrash
Registered Member
 
Rdrash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: wasilly
Posts: 3,215
Rdrash is on a distinguished road
Default Re: 6x6 ideas and discussion

Where are you sourcing your mutt parts?
__________________
`Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president.
Theodore Roosevelt (1858 - 1919)

To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, right or wrong - is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.
Theodore Roosevelt (1858 - 1919)

“A liberal is a person whose interests aren't at stake at the moment”
Rdrash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2013, 07:40 PM   #49
deepmud
Full Member
 
deepmud's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Wasilla
Posts: 3,368
deepmud is on a distinguished road
Default Re: 6x6 ideas and discussion

later versions of the MUTT did use the double a-arms in the back - the swing axles were like lifted-corvairs in the hands of the typical kids in the army - that is, upside-down a lot - hence they were considered absolutely unsafe, and almost all of them were cut in half and/or crushed rather than sold surplus. The double a-arms would for sure be the way to go - and yes, like most IFS, wheel offset does matter.

My dad sold the one we had for $500 - it even had a title.
__________________
keep an eye out for miracles - you'll find 'em!
deepmud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2013, 11:01 PM   #50
deepmud
Full Member
 
deepmud's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Wasilla
Posts: 3,368
deepmud is on a distinguished road
Default Re: 6x6 ideas and discussion

http://anchorage.craigslist.org/cto/4116940827.html

8 big tires.....I've seen an "Iceland cut" modified tread version of these 39" Mickey T's, for their deep-snow running.
__________________
keep an eye out for miracles - you'll find 'em!
deepmud is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -9. The time now is 01:18 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright Alaska 4x4 Network