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Old 08-02-2013, 02:11 PM   #1
Josh
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Default Bear Protection: Size vrs. Quantity

This article has sparked some interesting conversations at my office.

http://www.adn.com/2013/07/29/299795...arm-trail.html


I can recall with in the last few years 2 more instances where " substandard" rounds have put down a bear. One was with a 45 acp and the other was 5.56.

For the longest time I carried a 44 mag that was handed down to me from my mother. I purchased a SW 500 and carried it on a few trips. Along with various shot guns I now usually carry Glock 20 with cast 200 gr. rounds.

What does the board think? Lighter with more rounds to throw down range or something like the 500 with 5 shots and heavy.
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Old 08-02-2013, 02:47 PM   #2
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Default Re: Bear Protection: Size vrs. Quantity

Another thread:

http://www.alaska4x4network.com/show...t=58997&page=2

I'm assuming that were talking brownies? If so, ft. lbs. wins every time. People have been documented killing brownies with small calibers, but Its extremely rare, and considered luck.... There are a lot of bears that have been documented to have body's full of 9mm's, .44's and .308's for years before they were killed.

I would encourage anyone who's going to have an opinion on this matter, to go and sit down with a senior ADF&G biologist and have then explain the heart rate of a big browny, and how many beats of their heart it takes to run 50 yards. Basically a big griz can cover alot of ground, and rip off your face after its heart has been stopped.

To anyone who doesn't know, most .44 rounds will not penatrate a griz skull from the side, and further more a frontal shot to the front of a griz skull will slip right over its head (shaped like a football). I met and talked with Bucky, the resident of Rainy Pass lodge (has lived at and guided out of there for many many decades), and he hand loads his .44 until he can make it punch through a griz skull.

People talk about penatrating power this and penatrating power that. Let me assure you that it takes one of two things to stop a charging grizzley before it's too late:
1. Either an extremely lucky shot (which most bear hunters CAN NOT do with scopes and magnum rifles).

2. Bone crushing and disabling ft. lb's of torque.

If the less is more arguement is true, why do most bear guides not let their clients use anything less than a .338 win mag, and almost always fire back up shots?

Sadly, most people think that they can pop off a bunch of rounds before a bear tears into them, and I'll name just two of the big problems with that:

1. If you have enough time to unload a mag into a bear, you are going to have a really hard time explaining to fish and game as to why you knew for a fact that the bear wasn't just giving you a bluffing charge (as most are).
2. Most (REAL) bear attacks happen when a bear charges from only a few yards away after you startled them.

The best 1st line in Bear defense is not startling a bear, and letting them know what and where you are. The best 2nd line of defense is actually a can of bear mace, and a large caliber firearm. Stats show that most people that are actually involved in a real life threatening griz attack get the chance to fire 1-3 shots. I don't know about you, but I would much rather use 2000+ ft lbs vs much less...if hunters and guides alike want to typically have 2500 ft lbs of gun with back up shots when hunting bears at 200-300 yards, so as to stop them and not wound them, why in the world would I settle for much much less when they are dangerously close and attacking?
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Old 08-02-2013, 03:39 PM   #3
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Default Re: Bear Protection: Size vrs. Quantity

more is less.
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Old 08-02-2013, 03:40 PM   #4
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Default Re: Bear Protection: Size vrs. Quantity

and less is more.
44 mag, 45, 500

i dont own either but my girlfriends dad has a 500 and that thing is bad ***
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Old 08-02-2013, 03:58 PM   #5
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Default Re: Bear Protection: Size vrs. Quantity

Quote:
Originally Posted by chadcmb View Post
more is less.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chadcmb View Post
and less is more.
44 mag, 45, 500

i dont own either but my girlfriends dad has a 500 and that thing is bad ***

What in the heck are you talking about?
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Old 08-02-2013, 04:23 PM   #6
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Default Re: Bear Protection: Size vrs. Quantity

A big gun won't do you any good if you can't shoot it accurately... I mean unless you are counting on a 5ft encounter... in which case It's debatable what a gun is going to do for you anyway a that point... Also, the pistol encounters that are sufficient to fend off a bear seem to get a lot of attention, because it's rare... odds are not in your favor for sure... what is even more frightening is that people read stories like that and think their Kimber 1911 is adequate bear protection... because they read some story about someone doing it in the paper...

the .44, .454, .460, and .500 are all plenty capable calibers for bear defense if using a sufficient cartridge ...

I would pick one... and shoot it... practice with it... A LOT... BEFORE you ever intend on relying on it for any kind of useful protection.

Bears rarely present themselves while the gun is out so make sure to practice from the holster you intend to use... speed counts so make that drill a part of your practice regiment...

Also something to keep in mind... just because you encounter one doesn't mean there isn't 2 others close by.. so always carry extra ammo and have it handy..

Practice with what you intend on using... it may be the "Buffalo bore" brand, or any other high grain/fps bullet, and it's going to be expensive (If you don't reload anyway). But it will be worth it...


And as always.... remember to save one round just in case

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Old 08-02-2013, 05:27 PM   #7
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Default Re: Bear Protection: Size vrs. Quantity

Quote:
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A big gun won't do you any good if you can't shoot it accurately... I mean unless you are counting on a 5ft encounter... in which case It's debatable what a gun is going to do for you anyway a that point... Also, the pistol encounters that are sufficient to fend off a bear seem to get a lot of attention, because it's rare... odds are not in your favor for sure... what is even more frightening is that people read stories like that and think their Kimber 1911 is adequate bear protection... because they read some story about someone doing it in the paper...

the .44, .454, .460, and .500 are all plenty capable calibers for bear defense if using a sufficient cartridge ...

I would pick one... and shoot it... practice with it... A LOT... BEFORE you ever intend on relying on it for any kind of useful protection.

Bears rarely present themselves while the gun is out so make sure to practice from the holster you intend to use... speed counts so make that drill a part of your practice regiment...

Also something to keep in mind... just because you encounter one doesn't mean there isn't 2 others close by.. so always carry extra ammo and have it handy..

Practice with what you intend on using... it may be the "Buffalo bore" brand, or any other high grain/fps bullet, and it's going to be expensive (If you don't reload anyway). But it will be worth it...


And as always.... remember to save one round just in case
Excellent point, but would recommend handloading over Buffalo Bore, those round bent the bridge and exploded the cylinder on my super blackhawk, and drawing the holstered pistol also help in personal defense love the Colt Anaconda .44 mag
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Old 08-02-2013, 06:33 PM   #8
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Default Re: Bear Protection: Size vrs. Quantity

I carry a 12 gauge with a pistol grip . its a little heavy and awkward sometimes but I can get it in use fast and I'm more confident in its and my abilitys to use that then a pistol.

Tony hits it on the head you NEED to be proficent with what ever you decided to use.
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Old 08-03-2013, 12:21 AM   #9
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Default Re: Bear Protection: Size vrs. Quantity

This subject has been talked to death on this site. A 105MM howitzer is useless if you can't hit anything with it. Big bore handguns are great, IF YOU HIT THE SPOT YOU ARE AIMING FOR WITH THE FIRST SHOT, due to recoil, second and third shots are less likely to happen. Make the first shot count! And practice practice, practice, then practice some more.
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Old 08-03-2013, 10:46 AM   #10
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Default Re: Bear Protection: Size vrs. Quantity

I completely agree
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Old 08-10-2013, 12:50 PM   #11
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Default Re: Bear Protection: Size vrs. Quantity

Quote:
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I carry a 12 gauge with a pistol grip . its a little heavy and awkward sometimes but I can get it in use fast and I'm more confident in its and my abilitys to use that then a pistol.

Tony hits it on the head you NEED to be proficent with what ever you decided to use.
I carry the same thing. Having been previously charged by a bear you will have time to get anywhere from 2-5 shots off. Counting on more rounds of a smaller caliber is stupid. If you have time to shoot 15 rounds of 10 mm at a bear then you didn't need to shoot it in the first place.
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Old 08-10-2013, 01:22 PM   #12
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Default Re: Bear Protection: Size vrs. Quantity

couple weeks ago that guy killed a charging bear with 13 shots from an AK74 (5.45x39) not my first choice in bear defense but it worked.
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Old 08-11-2013, 12:18 PM   #13
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Default Re: Bear Protection: Size vrs. Quantity

There is an exception to every rule. I wouldn't bet my life on getting off 13 aimed shots during a bear charge. There is a documented Kodiak bear kill with one shot from a .22 rimfire. Does that make a .22 a bear gun? OTOH, I suppose any firearm is better than nothing.
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Old 08-11-2013, 12:30 PM   #14
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Default Re: Bear Protection: Size vrs. Quantity

With the .22 you'd almost be better off putting the barrel to your head so you don't have to feel the pain of the bear tearing you apart!
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Old 08-11-2013, 05:17 PM   #15
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Default Re: Bear Protection: Size vrs. Quantity

I'm surprised no one has mentioned 45-70
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Old 08-11-2013, 10:42 PM   #16
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Default Re: Bear Protection: Size vrs. Quantity

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I'm surprised no one has mentioned 45-70
45-70 is a rifle... the original topic was in regard to pistols of the sort...
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Old 08-12-2013, 09:48 AM   #17
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Default Re: Bear Protection: Size vrs. Quantity

well there are pistols in 45-70.
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Old 08-13-2013, 12:34 AM   #18
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Default Re: Bear Protection: Size vrs. Quantity

Anyone here ever shot a full power load in a .45-70 revolver?
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Old 08-13-2013, 12:40 AM   #19
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Default Re: Bear Protection: Size vrs. Quantity

My Dad's friend has an older Thompson Center Contender in 30-06 he converted into a pistol. Not something I want to shoot again. Wacking a cast iron mailbox with a baseball bat would have felt better!
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Old 08-13-2013, 12:55 AM   #20
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Default Re: Bear Protection: Size vrs. Quantity

Quote:
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Anyone here ever shot a full power load in a .45-70 revolver?


I pitty the fool?

The fact that someone decided that firing a 45/70 cartridge... especially a "hunting" round/cartridge.... from a pistol/revolver.... does not make it a legitimate platform for what is being discussed in this thread...
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Old 08-13-2013, 08:02 AM   #21
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Default Re: Bear Protection: Size vrs. Quantity

Any thing is open. Rifle too. What about a "big bore" AR for protection?
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Old 08-13-2013, 11:34 AM   #22
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Any thing is open. Rifle too. What about a "big bore" AR for protection?
the 458 socom is a pretty good platform... lots of projectiles to choose from since it uses the same bullet as the 45/70... however, I'm not really a huge fan of "relying" on an auto loader... I have a socom and hunt with it regularly... but I ALWAYS have my casull on my hip as well...
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Old 09-21-2013, 09:28 AM   #23
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Default Re: Bear Protection: Size vrs. Quantity

I'll throw my .02 cents in on this. Shack makes great points (as always!) and the 105mm debate is truer than you know. You can sink a boat in one fell swoop with a 105 shell- you can also sink said boat with a .22 caliber round (insert desired fps range here) but it'll just take the boat a little while longer to go under.

Just like the news article said, the guy fired once (i'm sure he hit the bear), and the bear paused, "oh, feel like I'm getting stung by bees"- continued the charge until something vital was struck in the second volley and function was affected to stop the animal.

I've shot that .458 with TonyM and wow is it sweet! I'd feel confident standing against a tick'd off critter with those chunks of lead flying from that drain pipe Tony called a barrel.

When I was still up there, my camping buddy and I would practice drills with our "bear protection" firearms. My 44 mag and his 454, both in the Ruger Super Redhawk Alaskan. We measured off a "sprinting" distance of about 2 seconds, faced away from our target, and the non-shooter would yell 'bear'. The one in line would turn, draw and try to fire twice within 2 seconds and hit the target once.

We did lots of practice (darn, there's that word again) from a laying down position, behind trees, and running. The running drills were hard but so worth it! If anyone wants details on the setup, send me a PM.

Anyway, we were talking about the 5.45 round in the article. If that's all I had, heck yeah I'd carry it and be happy about it too. Those bullets tumble when they hit and turn into little buzz-saws. Humane? Hmm, effective? The guy walked out of the park didn't he?
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Old 09-21-2013, 09:51 AM   #24
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Default Re: Bear Protection: Size vrs. Quantity

Quote:
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I pitty the fool?

The fact that someone decided that firing a 45/70 cartridge... especially a "hunting" round/cartridge.... from a pistol/revolver.... does not make it a legitimate platform for what is being discussed in this thread...
Friend of a friend story in Fairbanks said the guy broke his wrist on the first shot.
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Old 09-29-2013, 01:59 AM   #25
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Default Re: Bear Protection: Size vrs. Quantity

F. Bob Chow, a famous 1911 builder and pistol shot, said " Practice until you're up to your a$$ in empty brass."

Words to LIVE by!
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