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Old 03-30-2009, 10:21 PM   #51
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Default Re: Government taking over GM

Bad businesses can and should fail. However major industries cannot be allowed to collapse, hence chapter 11. C11 only works IF there is enough money to keep operating. That doesn't appear to be the case w/GM.

They say john q. public has lost 1 trillion dollars in savings as a result of this mess. If the banks, insurance companies and brokerages were allowed to crater it would be much worse. I don't know about you but my savings accounts, not 401k, have lost well into the 6 figures. I worked dam hard for over 20 years to save that money.

A major industry failure affects far more people than just those direct employees. And contrary to what has been said here, replacement industries just don't pop up. These aren't pizza joints. Those tens of thousands of employees don't just go over to Ford or Allstate and get another job. First you take their wages out of the economy and the dominos start to tumble. The problem is magnified by the fact that those that do have jobs stop spending.

What I hope is happening, continuing the airliner analogy, is a controlled descent, rather than just throw everyone off and auger it into the ground.
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Old 03-30-2009, 11:53 PM   #52
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Default Re: Government taking over GM

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Originally Posted by yellowk20 View Post
at least GM and Chrysler build a product and actually employ blue collor workers instead of F*ucking them like wall street does
And these "blue collar workers" deserve there jobs?

That pisses me off. I have worked in IT for 13 years now. I work hard to ensure that I can compete, that includes global competition.

If someone else can do your job cheaper and better I have no sympathy for you. You are a drag on the economy. If a robot, or unskilled immigrant can steal your job, I don't want to subsidize your career choice.
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Old 03-31-2009, 12:55 AM   #53
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Default Re: Government taking over GM

I trust what I know or seen last. Toyota has been a big leader in the auto industry. Jeep has been doing OK but still lacks. GM has never been one of the companys I have had much want for. Ford keeps making some nice reliable trucks. BUt nothing is made 100% in the U.S. Our probs stem from some of the big companys wanting to save & cut cost's by getting our parts made in "sweat shops". Look at what we say is not good in other countrys as we wear & drive what is made by slaves............................................ .....
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Old 03-31-2009, 12:59 AM   #54
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Default Re: Government taking over GM

the average gm worker makes $75 an hour adding wages and bennefits. they are hardley "blue collared" they make $150K+ doing mindless work, and put a lotta effort into making sure they arnt "overly productive" as to encroch on another potential job position.

UAW mantra : work slow, divide up tasks, and run up the clock. why have one guy when you can have 5, 3 of them supervising two people doing the work one man could do (each of whom makes $150k).

and to "save" money, they lay off workers, who continue to make 95% of their at work wages for the rest of their life in "retirement" producing nothing.. (i wonder why american auto makers can't stay outta the red?)

and that shutting detriot down song really gets on my nerves.. UAW shut detroit down, the UAW and retarted greedy execs who continued to make bigger and bigger suv's and truck when noone really wanted or needed them. who the hell needs a half ton truck that can tow 12k lbs and haul 3500lbs in the bed. isnt half a ton 1000#s? if you need to tow 12k lbs buy a 1 ton truck.

Last edited by moo.; 03-31-2009 at 01:03 AM.
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Old 03-31-2009, 01:23 AM   #55
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Default Re: Government taking over GM

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isnt half a ton 1000#s? if you need to tow 12k lbs buy a 1 ton truck.
A half ton truck has never weighed or pulled 1000 pounds... heck even my car weighs like 3,500 lbs. I'd actually be curious to find out where the "half ton" and "one ton" verbage came from since I honestly have no idea.

I do agree though, how many people who buy a 1/2 ton or 3/4 ton pickup ever use it to actually pull a load worthy of it's tow capacity? I know some do, like the ones who tow their wheeling vehicle to the trail, but most will never use it like that.
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Old 03-31-2009, 01:26 AM   #56
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Default Re: Government taking over GM

When you add together both wages and benefits, most people look like they earn way more than they do. A friend of mine with his degree in business told me that the average cost of employing someone is usually 2 or 3 times what the wage/salary is. A couple minutes of searching produced this:

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You might expect it from right-leaning commentators like Will Wilkinson. You wouldn't expect it from someone like Mark Perry, who lives in Flint, Michigan. And you certainly wouldn't expect to see it in the New York Times, from the likes of Andrew Ross Sorkin. But all of them are perpetuating the meme that the average GM worker costs more than $70 an hour, once you include health and pension costs.

It's not true.

The average GM assembly-line worker makes about $28 per hour in wages, and I can assure you that GM is not paying $42 an hour in health insurance and pension plan contributions. Rather, the $70 per hour figure (or $73 an hour, or whatever) is a ridiculous number obtained by adding up GM's total labor, health, and pension costs, and then dividing by the total number of hours worked. In other words, it includes all the healthcare and retirement costs of retired workers.

Now that GM's healthcare obligations are being moved to a UAW-run trust, even that fictitious number is going to fall sharply.
http://www.portfolio.com/views/blogs...-meme?tid=true

Couple other places said the same. It seems this $70+ number is magically showing up places, but no one can back it up with hard data
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Old 03-31-2009, 01:50 AM   #57
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Default Re: Government taking over GM

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And these "blue collar workers" deserve there jobs?

That pisses me off. I have worked in IT for 13 years now. I work hard to ensure that I can compete, that includes global competition.

If someone else can do your job cheaper and better I have no sympathy for you. You are a drag on the economy. If a robot, or unskilled immigrant can steal your job, I don't want to subsidize your career choice.


Just because your job doesn't put dirt under your nails doesn't mean that your not a "blue collar" .

all I'm saying is those UAW are alot more deserving of the "70.00 per hour" than all the Financial execs who get multi-Million dollar bonuses even though the company is tanking


The problem with the auto industry IS the UAW its become its own greedy corporation




If the government wants to help the american worker why not start by making us a competive in our own **** country with tax hikes for companies that outsource jobs to countries and Higher trade tariffs and repeal NAFTA and close down our borders to Illegals

( FYI I think anyone should have the opportunity to Immigrate LEGALLY and pursue the "american dream")
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Old 03-31-2009, 01:52 AM   #58
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Default Re: Government taking over GM

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A major industry failure affects far more people than just those direct employees. And contrary to what has been said here, replacement industries just don't pop up. These aren't pizza joints. Those tens of thousands of employees don't just go over to Ford or Allstate and get another job.
I disagree. Anytime there is healthy market for things a producer will ALWAYS "pop up"... it might not be overnight, but they will pop up. That's the way of the world, when there's a demand, a manufacturer/supplier will be created. Even if it isn't the exact same people who lost their jobs, new people will be employed. Our county is full of hard working people, we will get past hard times.
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Old 03-31-2009, 02:05 AM   #59
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Default Re: Government taking over GM

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Originally Posted by LiftIt! View Post
A couple minutes of searching produced this:

http://www.portfolio.com/views/blogs...-meme?tid=true
So that study says an assembly line worker makes almost $30 an hour, that's still a LOT considering... what are the requirements for an assembly line job and what is the cost of living in the midwest. Most law enforcement requires either military experience or an associates degree, on top of that you have to go through a year of training before you ever hit the road solo. I highly doubt many departments start out at $30 an hour. If you compare the training, experience and demands of the job to the salary then those "assembly workers" are doing very well for themselves.
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Old 03-31-2009, 06:44 AM   #60
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Default Re: Government taking over GM

The Thing i dont understand about all this is, why do people keep saying this is tax payers money.... Its not... if there was hundreds of billions of "extra" money laying around would we be in the shape we're in? the reality of it is this money thats being given away hand-over-fist isnt even real money its "cyber-money" there is no gold standard in this country, and cash doesnt exist... this entire countrys finance system lives as a value in a database.. thease billions that are being given away are simply some yayhooo taking a wizz in the banking systems cyber-money bit-bucket and pulling out billions...
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Old 03-31-2009, 08:10 AM   #61
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Default Re: Government taking over GM

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Originally Posted by yellowk20 View Post
Just because your job doesn't put dirt under your nails doesn't mean that your not a "blue collar" .

all I'm saying is those UAW are alot more deserving of the "70.00 per hour" than all the Financial execs who get multi-Million dollar bonuses even though the company is tanking


The problem with the auto industry IS the UAW its become its own greedy corporation




If the government wants to help the american worker why not start by making us a competive in our own **** country with tax hikes for companies that outsource jobs to countries and Higher trade tariffs and repeal NAFTA and close down our borders to Illegals

( FYI I think anyone should have the opportunity to Immigrate LEGALLY and pursue the "american dream")
DETROIT (Reuters) - General Motors Corp will be able to replace roughly a quarter of its factory workers with lower cost hires under the tentative contract reached last week with the United Auto Workers union.

The tentative contract identifies "in excess of 16,766" union-represented jobs that could be filled with new hires at roughly half the cost of current workers, according to a text of the document.

A majority of GM's 73,500 UAW-represented workers must ratify the proposed contract in a series of local votes expected to conclude next week.

If approved, the deal would allow GM to slash the labor cost advantage enjoyed by Toyota Motor Corp and the two other Japanese automakers operating production plants in the United States.

The average UAW-represented GM assembly line worker makes just under $28 per hour now before health-care and other benefits that take total hourly labor costs to $73, the automaker has said.

By contrast, Toyota's average hourly cost for workers at its U.S. plants was under $48 per hour including benefits.


GM and other U.S. automakers have argued that they need more flexibility to bring in lower cost temporary hires and the ability to fill janitorial and other jobs in their plants below the UAW-mandated wage scale.

UAW President Ron Gettelfinger said last week that the union and GM were negotiating a program of buyouts and early retirement offers for the automaker's workers who are making the higher wages.

But it had not been clear until Thursday how much room GM would have under the terms of the contract to bring in replacements at lower wages and with less expensive health-care and pension plans.

Although the GM contract has been ratified by a large margin in the first votes by at least six local units, some union workers have expressed concern about the contract's two-tier wage structure.

"Some people are happy about it because they will take the buyouts and retire, but most people are unhappy because they are on the line now and won't get those jobs that would be converted into the lower wage," Pat Sweeney, president of local 5960 at Lake Orion, Michigan, told Reuters.

UAW Local 5960 represents about 2,700 active members who assemble the Pontiac G6. The local has 620 temporary workers who would be made permanent under the contract, Sweeney said.

The UAW has distributed highlights of the contract to GM workers and retirees. Soldiers of Solidarity, a union dissident group that opposes many of the concessions in the proposed four-year deal, published a full copy of the tentative contract on its Web site.

In a side-letter to the contract, GM and the UAW also identified 3,126 jobs now outsourced to non-union companies that could be transferred to UAW-represented companies at the lower wage rates.

David Cole, chairman for the Center for Automotive Research in Ann Arbor, Michigan, estimated that the deal could cut GM's labor cost disadvantage against Toyota to about $800 per vehicle from about $4,000 on the average car or truck.

http://www.reuters.com/article/busin...32128020071004








so who started teh $70/hour thing? oh, thats right, GM said it.
and remember thats teh average as in 50%. half make more than that. (or did in 2007, i know they have agreeg to cut some of their wages, and i know the health care is managed by a trust, but GM has to pay into it. they just don't have to manage the bennefits anymore)

Last edited by moo.; 03-31-2009 at 08:17 AM.
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Old 03-31-2009, 08:25 AM   #62
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Default Re: Government taking over GM

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I disagree. Anytime there is healthy market for things a producer will ALWAYS "pop up"... it might not be overnight, but they will pop up. That's the way of the world, when there's a demand, a manufacturer/supplier will be created. Even if it isn't the exact same people who lost their jobs, new people will be employed. Our county is full of hard working people, we will get past hard times.
The kicker is that what happens when these US auto makers fail completely? what do you have left but foreign car makers? I know I dont want to own a Kia or daewoo. the only new car company to come along in the marketplace in recent memory is Saturn. how does a company like that fill the void left by a company like GM or Chrysler?

I guess if given the choice. I would rather have the government subsidize the auto industry. It was the auto manufacturing fatalities and their engineers and workers that were able to help the US win in WWII. What happens when they are gone and the **** ever hit the fan again?

This whole thing isn't so much a way to save GM in particular since f-ck em, let them go into chapter 11 its as much to do about saving the UAW which I dont necessarily agree with.
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Old 03-31-2009, 08:26 AM   #63
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Default Re: Government taking over GM

its a step in the right direction, Chrysler bounced back after its bailout ( only then to raped of it valuble assets By Daimer Benz later on ) I think GM can too if it can get the there productin cost's on par with Toyota
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Old 03-31-2009, 08:31 AM   #64
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Default Re: Government taking over GM

one other note about the $70+ /hr wage I believe that figure includes the employer taxes and workmans comp it pays as well( SS, Medicaid......)
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Old 03-31-2009, 08:35 AM   #65
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Default Re: Government taking over GM

they wont just disapear, even if they went completely under, the buildings and equipment would be sold off, and more than likley bought up by smaller companies looking to fill in the void. I dont believe in subsidies of any kind, or tax hikes on competitors, even if they are from foreign countries.

anything that gives a domestic company an unfair advantege will eventually hurt the consumer, as well as the company. if a company doesnt have to try as hard to compete, they they use sloppier manufacturing techniques, and sell inferrior products just because its easier to fit into their budget.

eg. if you and a competitor make the same product and the average sale price for that product is $5000, yours costs $5500 (domestic), and theirs cost $4500 (foreign); the government slaps a $2000 import tarrif on your competitor to make your product favored in a market (competative), the average price goes to $7000. now you have a $2000 production advantege, where does it go? i can garuntee you that the average price of that product will now be $7000, not $5500 for yours and $7000 for theirs.

more over the domestic company is sure as hell not going to try and widdle down their dis-advanteged expenses by $500-1000 to compete, they are going to increase bennefits and wages to entise more workers to come to work for them, so they can expand production of said product to increase vollume and profit; where without the tax they would be streamlining their business and you and I would be saving $2000.

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Old 03-31-2009, 09:40 AM   #66
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Default Re: Government taking over GM

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one other note about the $70+ /hr wage I believe that figure includes the employer taxes and workmans comp it pays as well( SS, Medicaid......)
The $70+ an hour that GM pays per worker includes retired workers. GM obviously has far more retired American workers than Toyota or Honda. That $70 includes the benefits that GM agreed to with UAW. Slashing that rate would be terrible for workers that are older and rely on that money.

I'm not a fan of Unions. I think their time has come and gone. The days of unsafe work places and child labor are a thing of the past. However, you can't cut benefits for people that are probably over the age of blue collar work.

Government run businesses are not what this country needs. We need to produce our own products again. I once took the train down the Hudson River to NYC from Poughkeepsie. It was 2 hours of empty warehouses and manufacturing. 100 years ago, we made everything in this country. In the name of the all mighty dollar, we have outsourced so many things that now China holds our debt to the tune of $2 trillion dollars. That is scary.

We need to turn things around and become self sufficient again. Stores like Walmart, Target, and Kmart are full of China made products. I try to do my part and stay out of those stores as much as possible and support the Mom and Pop type of business.
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Old 03-31-2009, 12:53 PM   #67
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Default Re: Government taking over GM

The idea that our country should produce all it consumes is the same as the idea our state, town, or household should produce all it consumes.
The costs and benefits are exactly the same, only the scale has changed.

In order for us to produce our own products, we will have to make less of everything. We do not have the resources to produce all we want of everything we want. So should we limit production at Microsoft and Boeing so that we can free up resources to make more toys?
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Old 03-31-2009, 01:04 PM   #68
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Default Re: Government taking over GM

I think every CEO of every major Corporation that needs a bailout should be fired. On top of that every CEO in every company should have a earnings cap of no more than $500,000/year, including stocks and shares. There is no reason 1 person should make millions of dollars a year when the workers have to eek by. There should also be some type of law implemented stating that anyone who is running for any political position, including the presidency, can not accept bribes/funding for their expenses. That way they will not owe favors to anyone once elected in office. I can't fathom the amount of money big business and the government throws around on a daily basis. It's insane and unecessary in my opinion. We need to stop helping other countries and start helping those who live here. Tighten the borders, stop pampering our so called allies and start taking care of Americans because we are in America.
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Old 03-31-2009, 01:52 PM   #69
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Default Re: Government taking over GM

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The idea that our country should produce all it consumes is the same as the idea our state, town, or household should produce all it consumes.
The costs and benefits are exactly the same, only the scale has changed.

In order for us to produce our own products, we will have to make less of everything. We do not have the resources to produce all we want of everything we want. So should we limit production at Microsoft and Boeing so that we can free up resources to make more toys?

No but we should make it so that things like labor rates and environmental concerns are taken out of the equation .

the reason its so cheap to produce things in china is because .There not bound by the laws of our own society. They use "slave" labor and have no qualms about destroying the environment. The Hypocrisy of this country is so great . people would never stand for the conditions that the chinese are forced to live and work in . but some how its ok to go down to wal-mart and buy these sweet shop spoils. because it happens over there ,not here in the good ole USA
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Old 03-31-2009, 05:37 PM   #70
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Default Re: Government taking over GM

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It was the auto manufacturing fatalities and their engineers and workers that were able to help the US win in WWII. What happens when they are gone and the **** ever hit the fan again?
I don't forsee GM and dodge retooling thier factories for tanks and raptors in the event of WWIII. It would be interesting though.
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