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Old 10-19-2006, 04:36 PM   #1
AK SloPok
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Default Turboing a Sled?

I was wanting to gather info on turboing a 2 stroke sled. Not something I want to do immediately but a long term project for the winter or next several years. Eventually I would like to remote turbo my truck but sleds are cheaper to replace! Thanks,
Chad
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Old 10-19-2006, 06:57 PM   #2
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Default Re: Turboing a Sled?

I don't think you can put a turbo on a 2 stroke.
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Old 10-19-2006, 06:59 PM   #3
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Default Re: Turboing a Sled?

heres the reasoning


urbocharging a 2 stroke doesn?t destroy all exhaust resonances, you have to place
the turbo after the expansion chamber. And match the turbine and housing
carefully against the resonances in the pipe.
Turbocharging a 4 stroke is nothing compared to doing it on a 2 stroke,
at least if you want it to be somewhat drivable.
I know 2 individuals who has built turbocharged 2 strokes ,but both are proffesional
engine designers ,1 with a doctors degree.
I belive that mechanicly supercharging a 2 stroke would be easier.
You have to have control over the pressure difference over the engine though.
Because as a 2 stroke have an overlap of the ports ,as big as the gas exchange
fase and exposed to all the displacement, it would run on exhausts and quickly
melt the piston if the exhaust backpressure would get close to the boost.
I also belive it would be easier to use a 2 stroke with a passive exhaust pipe,
otherwise you would have to match the pipe against the new enviroment.
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Old 10-19-2006, 07:56 PM   #4
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Default Re: Turboing a Sled?

Which model? You can buy turbo kits for Ski-Doo 800 Revs and ArcticCat M7's. They have a good track record and make awesome power. Do a search on the Snowest forums for "turbo", you'll find more info than you care to read and alot of the info is by people that have actually had them and who are creating the kits. The reliability issue is a thing of the past, IMO. The kits run about $4,500-5,000, but when your said and done making and tuning your own, I bet you'll be in it more.
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Old 10-20-2006, 10:16 AM   #5
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Default Re: Turboing a Sled?

I have not yet heard of anyone supercharging a 2 stroke snowmachine. I have seen several kits using the Aerocharger or simlar "small" turbo on 2-strokes. The more I think about it the better it would be to go with a larger displacement. The problem "in genera" with 2 strokes is the very narrow power band. Maybe Nitrous is the answer.

Actuall, learning to ride my sled AS IS... is the answer. Just thought a turbo would be a fun project.
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Old 10-20-2006, 10:50 AM   #6
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Default Re: Turboing a Sled?

i have tons of info on 2 stroke turbo'n if you decide to go on with it let me know, they really make big ponies once you get up in the hills .
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Old 10-20-2006, 12:22 PM   #7
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Default Re: Turboing a Sled?

Nice. I just read my post and apparently have some issue with putting the last letter in my words... ****...

Anywho, would love to hear about the info. I really do need to increase my skill before I increase my speed but hell. Why not do both at the same time?

I am currently riding a 02' Ski-Doo Renegade 136" 700. The only mods so far are the can, and riser. But, I do have a hood to go on, going to drop some wheels, and shocks for the front.
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Old 10-20-2006, 02:40 PM   #8
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Default Re: Turboing a Sled?

i sold my turbo setup , it is more important to finnish the ride than be first to the top now . i did pickup a boondockers nitrous kit . shedding a few pound off the sled too .
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Old 10-20-2006, 04:31 PM   #9
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Default Re: Turboing a Sled?

and just think..you dont have to wait on the nitrous to spool up!!
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Old 10-20-2006, 05:13 PM   #10
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Default Re: Turboing a Sled?

[QUOTE=akeddie]i sold my turbo setup , it is more important to finnish the ride than be first to the top now . QUOTE]


totally agree with ya. last winter i went on a few rides with other people (heavily modded sleds) and ended up towin them out.
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Old 10-20-2006, 05:21 PM   #11
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Default Re: Turboing a Sled?

seems like that how 1/2 my trips go. towing out the modded sleds
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Old 10-20-2006, 06:53 PM   #12
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Default Re: Turboing a Sled?

dont get me wrong nitrous only lasts a couple of second and no where near the hp and as for turbo lag with the right clutching your into it , just tired of wrenching on the trail while every one else gets to ride but i do love the ponnies that will be a hard thing to give up , but that is where skill comes in being able to out do some one on a less powered sled hell last year we were have'n a great time hymarking on a tundra , and i have a great story about a great place called "**** talk hill" but i dont want to bore you all
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Old 10-26-2006, 10:16 AM   #13
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Default Re: Turboing a Sled?

simple fact.... modding any engine is a trade-off..... you trade reliability for performance.... why do you think top-fuel motors only last a few runs.....
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Old 11-03-2006, 09:57 AM   #14
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Default Re: Turboing a Sled?

yea but it shure is fun!
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Old 11-05-2006, 11:52 AM   #15
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Default Re: Turboing a Sled?

http://www.lako.com/turbo.html


id kill for one of those on my 98' xc700
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Old 11-05-2006, 12:58 PM   #16
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Default Re: Turboing a Sled?

I rode a turbo Apex yesterday that was turned down to 260 hp and oh my god was it fun. You can pretty much climb any hill at half throttle and when you start to slow down, instead of turning out, you just give it more gas and you start accellerating...UP hill. Unreal. I'm going to buy a leftover M6 EFI at the end of this winter and buy an OVS turbo kit. 215 hp on 100 oct. The M7 makes 240 hp with the kit. You can see them at www.purelogictuning.com. After riding a turbo, I NEED one, that simple
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Old 11-07-2006, 06:00 AM   #17
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Default Re: Turboing a Sled?

Niko, where didi you ride?
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Old 11-07-2006, 08:32 AM   #18
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Default Re: Turboing a Sled?

I have seen some pics of folks riding at Hatchers (not sure if that is legal or not) they claimed snow of 3 inches to 3 feet and lots of rocks.

On a turbo note. Has anyone seen Thunderstruck 5? If not... well you can understand how amazing turbos are. And the sounds they make? Well that is just puddin...
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Old 11-07-2006, 02:03 PM   #19
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Default Re: Turboing a Sled?

some of you might find this interesting i have been talking with a guy that turboed a old phazer fan cooled motor i will attach some of the info if you want to read it
Hi Kevin, I tried to send this earlier but it apparently did not make it thru eBay's message system. Here is the rundown and the attached details on building the 650 engine and a variety of photos are attached. The picture files are pretty big so I'll send some of them one at a time in separate emails.

Turbo Phazer History



I first built it in 1991 after being told that you could not turbo a fan cooled engine successfully. It took me almost two full winters to get it to operate half way decently but the original 485cc engine produced 132 hp on Dyno Tech Engineering's dyno. If you are old enough you may know of Jim Czycala who operated the Dyno Tech News for many years, a Consumer Reports type of publication. He also did all of the dyno work for Tim Bender who won Eagle River more times than I can remember.



I ran the 485 turbo Phazer from '91 to about '99 with great success. Basically, the turbo was an add on to a Bender ported Phazer engine that produced 85hp normally aspirated and 132hp with the turbo at 13# boost. Once I replaced the original cast pistons I never hurt a piston or anything else for that matter. Once I had a wrist pin bearing come apart at the end of a season but that was it. Never broke it which is a miracle considering the poor stock connecting rods in the Phazer and the less than stout crank but the turbo power is "soft" so it doesn't hammer like Nitrous would. The key turned out to be the fuel system which I developed to deliver a constant fuel pressure above and beyond the boost pressure using a high pressure (35psi) electric fuel pump and a variety of pressure regulators and sensors to control them. I "gave" the system to Jim and it is now the standard for all turbo snowmobiles.



Eventually, 132hp was not enough so I decided to build the 650 engine. The attached narrative details what was involved. I also had to radically modify the chassis to fit the 650 engine which is about 1 1/2" taller than stock and had to be sunk in the chassis. Had a lot of trouble with the combustion chamber design with the larger engine and cooked a lot of pistons before I got a handle on it. Eventually got it to work pretty well but by then the chassis was totally out of its league. The small 8 pitch drivers and limited tunnel clearance meant a severe limitation on the picks that could be used and I had a lot of trouble trying to put the power to the ice.



Decided I needed to update the entire chaincase/brake/driveshaft situation and there is where it sits at the moment. The chassis needs major surgery to adapt an Artic Cat chaincase and driveshaft assembly rolled back to allow reasonable tunnel clearance. Also need a drag racing style skid frame to make it work right.



So it nevers ends but it sure is fun to run and beat most of the 800-1000cc machines in 600-700 ft. It sound reasonably stock so the first pass with the big boys is always a surprise for them. Hope you enjoy the story.
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Old 11-07-2006, 02:04 PM   #20
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Default Re: Turboing a Sled?

BUILDING A 650cc PHAZER ENGINE


VERY DIFFICULT. Attached pictures will give a general idea. I started with an Exciter crankcase which has the same cylinder centerline separation but MUCH better rods, crank, and 0.300" longer stroke. I then machined 3/4" off the top of the crankcase and machined an adapter that would bolt to the Exciter crankcase and provide the correct stud pattern for the Phazer cylinders using larger 3/8ths studs . This adapter positioned the cylinders so that bottom dead center of the crankshaft would properly match BDC of the cylinders using modified Wildcat 650 pistons. Then because of the longer stroke, I needed 0.300" taller cylinders so I bored out the cast iron liner completely from the Phazer jugs and fabricated a spacer that looks just like an additional fin on the cylinder and welded it internally to the Phazer jug. There is a side by side photo of the finished jug next to a stock jug for comparison.

I planned on a 78mm final bore using modified Artic Cat Wildcat pistons so I bored the new taller jugs to 78mm (all aluminum at this point - no cast iron liners at all) and temporarily assembled the cylinders on the crankcase. Putting a degree wheel on the crank, I then marked where the top and bottom of each port needed to be on the cylinder walls. I arbitrarily used the same port timing as my original modified 485cc engine which had produced 132hp with 14 lbs of boost. After taking the engine apart again, I used a right angle grinder to port the cylinders until the timing was what I wanted. Then I made a paper pattern of the port configuration and transferred it to some 76mm blind sleeves (solid cylinders, no ports) purchased from LA Sleeve. With the ports marked on the sleeves I machined them on a milling machine leaving lots of meat for final matching once the sleeves were installed.

Finally, I bored the jugs out to accept the 76mm sleeves and pressed them into the jugs. Note that although I planned to use 78mm pistons, the OD I had available for the sleeves would only accept a sleeve intended for a 76mm bore, but I determined after discussions with LA Sleeve that my final wall thickness would be adequate with this set up. Once the sleeves were in place I again dummy assembled the engine and made the final timing marks on the cylinder walls. After taking it apart, I went at it with my right angle grinder and carefully fine tuned all the ports until they matched the marks and blended nicely with the aluminum portion that was already ported most of the way.

Once that was done I had to modify the Wildcat pistons by trimming the skirts, putting in the intake window on one side, adding the boost ports in the side of the pistons, and moving the bottom ring anti-rotation pin which was in the wrong place. Since I couldn't pull the pin out I purchased tiny end mills and carefully milled the pin away, being very careful not to actually hit either side of the ring groove. Once removed, I drilled a new hole approximately 0.100" from the original location and pressed in new pins which Wiseco was gracious enough to give me. Then all that was left was to manufacture copper head gaskets (I used 0.040 copper roof flashing from Home Depot) and opened up the cylinder heads to give a reasonable cranking compression.

Then, the fun began. First I needed to create a fan housing to drive the Phazer fan off the exciter pulley. The exciter pulley alignment was off by a large amount so I had to machine a custom pulley out of Exciter & Phazer parts and then had to fabricate a housing using the lower portion of the Exciter stator cover and the top half of the Phazer fan housing. Once that was done, my new 650cc Phazer engine was about 1 1/2" taller than stock and would not fit under the hood. I had to radically butcher the left side frame rail structure so that the engine could be lowered enough and then the tie rod was in the way so I remounted the tie rod under the steering arms (it normally goes on top) and had to custom build a Z shaped drag link from the bottom of the steering shaft out to the right side steering arm. This of course meant that none of the rubber boots fit any longer so they had to be re-engineered as well. The handlebar shaft itself now hit the carbs which mounted lower than originally so I had to put a "loop" in it similar the some of the Skidoos.







2.


Once I got it running I encountered severe detonation problems I had not experienced before and quickly cooked five or six pistons before I figured out that the combustion chamber design in the head was no good. A second generation head design solved a lot of the problem but I'm working on a new design that should work even better. I didn't run it last winter because I need to make some new sleeves and the sled really needs a new chaincase and brake set up. The small 8 pitch drivers require the track to be kept really tight to prevent ratcheting so I need to have 9 pitch drivers like most sleds and a much better brake. Although converted to hydraulic, the brake rotor is so small that it is only good for a couple of stops from 100mph without significant cool down period and the brake pucks wear out very quickly. In order to go to 9 pitch drivers the chain case needs to be lowered and rolled back for tunnel clearance, meaning the toe holes will need to be modified as well. I'm planning to use Artic Cat chain case components since I already use an Artic Cat secondary clutch.

As you can see, it never ends - but its fun and unique so thats the name of the game for me. 0 - 60mph in 2.4 secs isn't too bad either. Imagine what a good rear suspension, more boost, and an intercooler will do !!
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Old 11-07-2006, 02:05 PM   #21
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Default Re: Turboing a Sled?

Hi Kevin, No problem posting whatever you like and I'll be happy to answer any questions you or others may have. The 13# boost was never a problem. At the end of the first season of experimenting with the original 485cc engine I finally broke a ring land on one stock cast piston but once I went with Wiseco forged units I never again had an issue. I ran the 485 engine from '91 thru about '98 and NEVER hurt a piston. In fact, when I retired the 485 engine it still had the original two forged pistons that went in it for the '92 season. Although the set up was NOT suitable for trail riding because the pipe really didn't work very well except at full throttle and the fuel consumption was horrific, I left the odometer intact and actually put over 400 mi on the sled doing 700 ft blasts on the lake so that meant literally hundreds of runs without a problem. I once had a wrist pin bearing break which didn't do the turbo any good as the needles went through it but I considered that a minor problem over the long haul. Never broke a rod or hurt a crank bearing or seal which is a minor miracle.

As far as I know, my sled is the only successful turbo on a fan cooled engine and the reason it worked so well is the same reason I never had a cylinder temp problem and the same reason you could only run 8# of boost reliably. If that sounds confusing it all boils down to the fuel system which is absolutely critical to running more than 6-8 lbs of boost. It makes perfect sense if you think about it in simple terms of pressure. Let me explain.

Start with basic carburetor theory. The carb float bowls are normally open to the atmosphere. When air passes through the restriction of the carb venturi the air speeds up and the pressure in the venturi drops (good old Bernoulli's principle). The atmospheric pressure on top of the fuel in the bowl is now higher than the pressure in the venturi and so it pushes fuel through the jets and into the engine. In a turbo set up, the carburetor bowl vents should be plumbed to the airbox, not open to the atmosphere, so I'll assume that yours are. If not, the problem is even worse. Plumbed correctly, whatever pressure is in the airbox is also over the fuel in carburetors.

Now imagine that you are trying to run 15# of boost in the airbox. That puts 15# of pressure on top of the fuel in the bowls as well. As the air speeds up in the carb venturis the pressure there drops below 15# and the higher pressure over the fuel in the bowls pushes fuel through the jets and into the engine just as before. So far so good. NOW COMES THE PROBLEM. As the fuel is consumed the floats drop and open the needle valves to admit more fuel. HOWEVER, the fuel pump now "sees" that same 15# of pressure pushing back at it and can not push hard enough to make fuel flow into the carburetors. In fact, the boost pressure will try to force whatever fuel is left in the bowls back into the fuel pump!

It's like putting your mouth over a scuba tank valve and cracking the valve open. No matter how hard you blow, the pressure in the scuba tank is far higher than you can generate and the air will flow from the tank into you, not the other way around. The same thing happens with the fuel in your turbo engine. With a stock fuel delivery system, the sled will briefly accelerate like crazy and then run out of fuel, lean out, detonate, and blow up. By limiting the boost pressure you are simply hiding from the real problem which is how to keep fuel in the carbs at all times.

I recognized the problem early on but the solution took some doing. In essence, you need a fuel system that has a capacity to deliver much higher fuel pressure than the stock diaphram pumps are capable of but one that will vary that pressure in response to the changing boost pressure. I've included a photo of my original solution and will describe how it works. In the photo you will recognize an electric fuel pump and two pressure regulators, one gold and one red. Since I had maintained the electric start on my Phazer I had an easy source of 12V to work with. The electric pump was from some automotive application. I can't remember exactly which one but it is not important. Any 12V automotive fuel pump intended for a fuel injection system will work fine. Those pumps will put out all the pressure we can possibly use at high volumes as well. Just don't confuse a fuel injection pump with one intended for use with carburetors which operate at dramatically lower pressures.

The electric pump picked up fuel from the tank and ran it through the gold pressure regulator and then back to the tank, creating a "fuel loop" like a fuel injection system. The gold regulator was adjusted to maintain 35psi in the loop which I found to be adequate for my purposes. With a good supply of 35psi fuel now available, I had to come up with a way to regulate it to the carburetors. That was done by taking taking fuel from the loop and feeding it through the red pressure regulator to drop it down to a level the carbs could handle. By experimentation I detemined that the stock Mikuni needle/seat would seal fine at 10psi without the pressure blowing the needles off their seats and flooding the engine. So the red regulator was set to deliver 10psi. The big trick comes next.

Knowing that 10psi is not enough fuel pressure to work in high boost applications, we need to raise the fuel pressure as the boost pressure rises. To do that, I took the vent in the red regulator which is normally open to the atmosphere and connected it to the air box instead. So, instead of having atmospheric pressure on top the spring/diaphram in the red regulator (which is a part from a Nitros system by the way), I had airbox pressure. That way any increased pressure in the airbox also pushed down harder on the diaphram in the red regulator, just like screwing in the adjustment screw. By doing this, the fuel pressure rises by 1 psi for every 1 psi of boost pressure.

At idle (no boost pressure) the carb gets 10 psi of fuel pressure. At 8# of boost, the carbs get 18# fuel pressure. At 15# boost, the carbs get 25# fuel pressure, and so on. At all times the fuel pressure remains 10psi HIGHER than the boost pressure which is over the fuel in the float bowls so fuel will always flow into the bowls when needed. In fact, the carbs can't tell the difference between idle and full blown boost so they deliver fuel consistently regardless of what the turbo is doing. IT WORKS FLAWLESSLY.

Originally, I had this system plumbed in parallel with the stock pump and had a pressure switch in the airbox that turned on the electric pump when boost reached 3psi, but the high boost pressures that the stock pump saw (see paragraph 4) would blow out the diaphrams in the pump. I twice bent rods when I tried to start it without realizing that the ruptured diaphrams had flooded the crankcase and I hydrauliced the engine. I found a temporary fix by doubling up the diaphrams in the pump but the final solution was to do away with the stock pump altogether.

In version #2, I built a smaller aluminum fuel tank and put a stock Mustang electric fuel pump directly in the tank with the two regulators mounted on top where you really can't see them. It cleaned up the engine compartment a lot and made it even "steathier". I eliminated the stock pump altogether and powered the electric pump through a simple Radio Shack relay that is wired to the headlight circuit and connects the electric pump to the battery any time the engine is running (and therefore the headlight is on). I also added a relay bypass pushbutton that I can push to run the pump manually. This is needed so that I can refill the carbs after jet changes. Otherwise, it would never start since it needs to be running to turn on the electric pump and it won't run without fuel.

Regarding the compression ratio. The 485 had stock compression and worked great at 13# boost. When I first bolted the 650 together, it had 225# of cranking compression which was totally out of line. So I opened up the combustion chambers by cutting them deeper into head until it was down to around 150. Unfortunately I had eliminated any "squish" area between the piston and head and found that I had uncontrollable detonation as raw fuel pooled on top of the piston and made it think it had super high compression. I only figured it out because bigger jets made the detonation worse instead of better (more raw fuel taking up space). I then modified another set of heads with different shaped combustion chambers which helped a lot but the next set will be even better.

The skid frame is a big problem. Even with a steel belted track which I got from Camoplast as an engineering sample back in '92, I have to keep the track super tight to keep from ratcheting with the small 8 pitch drivers. Since the Phazer brake disc is also pretty useless at 110mph, I need to radically modify the entire drivetrain. The plan is to use an Artic Cat chaincase rolled back and lowered to accept the 9 pitch drivers (perhaps with extraverts) along with a new drag racing style skidframe with large rear wheels to free up a lot of horsepower and allow enough tunnel spacing for bigger/better studs. As it is, it just freewheels on anything but really good ice. Naturally, it won't be easy as the toe holes will have to be modified to get the driveshaft back and lower but what else is new.

So that's about it. With a reliable fuel supply you can run very high boost pressures with good reliability and the reason my fan motor lives is that it is FUEL COOLED as well as air cooled. 175hp+ consumes a lot of fuel and the high volume of liquid going through the cylinders carries the heat away with it. With no intercooler the incoming air is ridiculously hot (can't touch the rubber hoses) but there is zero room for one at this point. I'm considering another radical engine redesign to rotate the cylinders 180 degrees to put the carbs out front but that's another whole can of worms. Won't have time to do anything this winter but wait until next year !!

Have a great winter.

Bob Eliezer

P.S. I've always enjoyed oddball engines. See my 11 sec 6cyl Maverick from 30 yrs ago. The car is still owned by the guy I sold it to in 1978 and he now runs 10.6s with the same Ford 6.
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Old 11-07-2006, 02:24 PM   #22
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Default Re: Turboing a Sled?

the last page was in reference to a bunch of questions i asked him im shureyou can figgure out what i asked was thinking about boosting a fan cooled sled to see how light you could make a sled maby a super light turboed fan mountain seld , if you have any questions i would be glad to ask him for you and i have pictures of the phazer and the motor he is building i can e-mail them to any one that wants to see them
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Old 11-08-2006, 09:14 AM   #23
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Default Re: Turboing a Sled?

I am constantly amazed at the tenacity of people. Very cool story. I would love to have those pics if you still have them. You can send them to my e-mail address chadandmegan@gci.net

I think it would be very cool to turbo the newer version of the RMK or Phazer light. Or even the old 90s one. My wife had one of those sleds and they were great fun. I can't imagine that chassis with 130hp though! I think they were around 400 lbs. And that was with the steel skis!

Maybe at some point I will clear out my "excess" crap for a project like this. Looks like I have a lot to learn. Oh, and what turbo kit did you have on your sled? How did it work for you?
Chad
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Old 11-09-2006, 03:05 PM   #24
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Default Re: Turboing a Sled?

Mabie i can breathe some "fire" into my old cougar 550
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Old 11-09-2006, 03:56 PM   #25
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Default Re: Turboing a Sled?

now, this is just plain badass!! put a turbo on this one!!

http://www.snowest.com/fusetalk/mess...VIEWTMP=Linear
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