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Shooting, Firearms, and Reloading Looking for a new pistol, purchased a new rifle, have a range report, tell us about it here. All firearm related topics, including political, belong in this forum.

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Old 12-24-2011, 01:23 PM   #26
Alaska ZJ
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Default Re: Shotgun for Mom - Bear defense

For your mom. Possibly. Ruling out any topic without a full and unbiased look at the facts is not what I would do.
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Old 12-24-2011, 04:24 PM   #27
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Default Re: Shotgun for Mom - Bear defense

I'm mostly considering the ballistics, I know there are plenty of good 20ga platforms to consider.

The reduced recoil of a 20 would definitely increase the likely hood of an accurate first and second shot. The 12 just seems so much more versatile, especially with the advent of reduced recoil loads now available from the ammo manufacturers.
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Old 12-24-2011, 07:51 PM   #28
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Default Re: Shotgun for Mom - Bear defense

Some rough balistic spec differences between 12 and 20s

12 gauge is .729 caliber
20 gauge is .615 caliber

The 2-3/4" 12 Rottweil has about 300 more pounds of energy than the 3" 20 at the same ranges. The 3" 12 is far above the 20. As for weight, you`ll see 3" mag 12 rounds at 1-3/8 oz. vs a 3" 20 at 1 oz. About a 200 gr difference.

For pump guns in newby hands I recommend 2-3/4" rounds for cycling success...the 3" can give a newby some grief. Another problem is recoil from the 3"...in any hands or gun it slams.

FWIW I agree with the 20 for home defense but not for dangerous game outside the home. Never use slugs inside your home! I`ve tested quite a few heavy slugs and have come to the conclusion that you are best off with these 3 offerings for big game.

Dixie slugs (over 700 gr)
Brenneke slugs (up to 600 gr)
Hornady XTP sabot (50 cal) expanding round...not intended for dangerous game but a great hunting round. And remember buckshot is for people and small game...but I`m sure you already knew that.

The Brenneke and Dixie`s use a cast lead projectile and are much harder than most sabot/non-sabot bullets from other manufacturers. I`ve done some penetration tests and was blown away by the Brenneke`s ability get that deep into hard materials and retain 95% of it`s shape. Same with the Dixie but at less velocity and quite a bit less penetration. I run the pre-Brady Bill version of the Brenneke Rottweil and it is quite a bit hotter than the Black Magic the company now sells for civilian use. Case length is longer with more powder...same bullet. I`ll have to post a pic of the difference in the near future.

Anywho, easiest way to say it is 12 gauge when it matters or step up to .400+ caliber rifle. Energy matters and penetration in a straight line is the goal with the big hairy monsters. My Mom was always comfortable with the magazine fed pump 30-06 in the field but I`ve always gone with the 12.
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Old 12-25-2011, 06:26 PM   #29
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Default Re: Shotgun for Mom - Bear defense

Here is the 20 guage


2 3/4"

Energy


Velocity


3"

Energy


Velocity


Here next is the 12 Guage

2 3/4"
Energy


Velocity


3"
Energy


Velocity
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Old 12-25-2011, 06:35 PM   #30
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Default Re: Shotgun for Mom - Bear defense

I am more interested in Energy really with a bear defense gun, not really velocity, so here are some numbers taken from the above tables.

I thought it best to compare like AMMO from the same factory at first. Gives a good apples to apples comparison.

Here is the link

http://www.fusionammo.com/products/slugs.aspx
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Old 11-05-2013, 05:42 PM   #31
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Default Re: Shotgun for Mom - Bear defense

Bringing this back to the top. I've had a Mossberg 500 for years now that's been stupid reliable with all the abuse it's been through. I want to pick up a second shotgun and I've been thinking about an autoloading this time around. I saw the 930 SPX mentioned a few times in this thread. It's been a few years since the last post, has anyone had any issues with the 930SPX as far as reliability? Main reason for looking at Mossberg is because I've been so happy with my 500.

Looking at this one specifically. My 500 has an ATI folding stock with pistol grip so I'd like to get the same feel with the SPX. http://www.mossberg.com/product/shot...p-8-shot/85370
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Old 11-06-2013, 04:20 PM   #32
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Default Re: Shotgun for Mom - Bear defense

for bear protection i would keep it simple, stick with the 870 or a mossberg 500, i have one of each, never had any issues with either, some people like the safety location on the mossberg better. if you have a misfire, you rack another round, a semi auto can jam or if its not a hot enough load, ive seen the m4's not fully cycle. as for the recoil, yea it will hurt but being mauled by a bear hurts more....just my pennies
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Old 11-06-2013, 04:30 PM   #33
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Default Re: Shotgun for Mom - Bear defense

The only experience that I have with auto loaders is while duck hunting with some friends. The auto loaders are deffinately not as reliable in real world dirty conditions from what I've been around. I know that my buddy was pretty frustrated with his 1187, but I think he's figured out that he has to keep it squeaky clean to keep it working, as opposed to traditionally throwing the 870 in the back of the truck and forgetting about it until the next morning of duck hunting... That's not to say that there are not other reliable auto loading systems that I'm not aware of, that has just been my experiences.

I would vote for the reliability of a pump. Like anything though, train and train so that its second nature to pump when you have a bear coming at you from a few yards away.
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Old 11-06-2013, 04:32 PM   #34
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Default Re: Shotgun for Mom - Bear defense

On that note, my only comment about a mossy 500 is to make sure to get the dual rail pump. Some of the Eco line 500's that I've seen are a single rail pump and are not as strong as opposed to the age old dual rail traditional 500.

Great guns.
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Old 11-06-2013, 05:38 PM   #35
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Default Re: Shotgun for Mom - Bear defense

My 500 that I have now has been, and will continue to be my bear gun. It's beat up, it's compact, and I trust it. Ignore the bandolier and shell holder on the stock, both were just for a zombie gun picture, I only use the side saddle in real life.


I've read a lot of comments from people about the autoloaders not being as reliable, and the 1st gen 930 spx did have a couple issues but Mossberg fixed them. The 2ng gen was improved, and 3rd gen(current) which has been out for a while is suppose to be bulletproof. A few owners have reported trouble cycling light birdshot loads, but buckshot and slugs cycle just fine which is all I shoot. Most of the comments about pumps being more reliable seem to be posted by people who haven't owned a newer auto (not to discredit anyone's personal experiences on here).

Oh yeah, I'm not interested in anything Remington.

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I would vote for the reliability of a pump. Like anything though, train and train so that its second nature to pump when you have a bear coming at you from a few yards away.
I've practiced mock attacks for years, it's more than second nature to me. I didn't have to think twice when I was charged a few years ago.
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Old 11-07-2013, 07:39 AM   #36
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Default Re: Shotgun for Mom - Bear defense

What about short stroking a pump? That can cause a malfunction.
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Old 11-07-2013, 09:14 PM   #37
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Default Re: Shotgun for Mom - Bear defense

Moms not going to train much. An autoloader would be ideal IMO.
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Old 11-07-2013, 09:45 PM   #38
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Default Re: Shotgun for Mom - Bear defense

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh View Post
What about short stroking a pump? That can cause a malfunction.
That is what I love about the Winchester 1300s. If you do not fight them they will almost do the work for you. Besides that, short stroking is a training issue. And with that comes doing failure drills as well.

A lot of people think that a shotgun is a weapon for the common man. And in some ways they are right, anyone can put shells in and pull the trigger. But to really master one is a different story. Their versatility in cartridge choices is one of the biggest reasons for this. Especially once you start carrying multiple types of rounds in your sidesaddle and have to learn combat (dry pipe) and change over reloading (changing to different loads). Check out the Art of the Dynamic Shotgun to get and idea of how versatile and how difficult it is to master. http://youtu.be/1XCv0X6SqUg
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Old 11-08-2013, 09:35 AM   #39
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Default Re: Shotgun for Mom - Bear defense

That series was so in depth, I just put it back in the stack of DVD's on the shelf and still have yet to finish it....

In about 5-minutes of the video, I figured out that I know absolutely nothing about a shotgun...
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Old 11-08-2013, 09:46 AM   #40
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Default Re: Shotgun for Mom - Bear defense

My remington 1100 is prolly the most reliable auto loader I've had. No jams/malfunctions to speak of.
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